ThunderCat Technology Co-founder and CEO
NYU Stern School of Business MBA, Management and Interactive Marketing
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How did you get to where you are today? What incidents and experiences shaped your career path? What inspired you to work on this business idea?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
How did it get to where I am today? I mean, hard work, but also education. I think that from an early part of my childhood, my parents definitely emphasized academics. Um, where did I How did I get there? But when I was in high school, I decided I want to go to West Point and whether I had gotten it or not, I did get in. But it changed how I approached my teenage years Like I went from being an A B student to straight A's. I went from being in the student body to being in the student government. I went from being on the track. Team captain attracted him. I went from being a member of my community, to volunteering, to help others in my community so that it's sort of shaped me to become a holistic person because I wanted to get in the West Point. The reality is I didn't realize that what I was doing was becoming a better person. I guess the you know, the other critical thing that contributed was certainly my experience at West Point in Ranger school and, um in the military having an opportunity to lead others at a very early age in terms of what incidents and experience to shape my career path. When I left the military, I definitely wanted to go into sales. I think that every company sells a product or service. I know you guys air connecting with nonprofits as well. Even a nonprofit is selling a service that they do, and they want donor to contribute to that charity or or cause s. So I thought I'll just start off in sales or sales and marketing and then see where my career takes me from there. I started off working for J and J and selling surgical instruments, and I wasn't great at it. I don't want to say I was bad at it. I'll just say I wasn't good at it. I got a call from a headhunter said, Do you want to sell software? I said no. They said, Well, it's mechanical engineering software And so I started there and that I still have ended up in the technology field, not because I'm a techie, quite the opposite. I'm not, but that's what started. I was part of that first dot com. During that time frame, I knocked out my MBA. Um, so, yeah, I went down to a technology and technology sales path, and I always found myself wanting to go to smaller and smaller and smaller companies. You know, I started off with the government, which is the largest employer in the United States, and I went to J and J. And then I went through mid path and I went to a dot com startup, and then my next company was seven people when I showed up. So I was always going to smaller, smaller companies until eventually I became a co founder of one in terms of what inspired me to work on my business idea. It wasn't my idea. And in fact, there's nothing particularly unique about the business. Were a bar a value added reseller or solutions provider if you want our systems integrators and other sexy term people using out there, but we're a bar, we re sell other people's stuff, and there's 10,000 bars in the United States, so we're not unique from that perspective. I was actually approached by my four co founders to it was their idea to launch this business, and it was, um, because I'm a disabled veteran and in the U. S. Government who we were attempting to sell to women owned small businesses get priority set aside. Minority owned businesses get set aside. Veterans and Dick label veterans are all part of the government's small business program. A lot of people may not realize, but the U. S government everything they buy in the billions and billions and trillions of dollars of stuff they buy every year they want 21. Excuse me. They want 21% of it to go to small businesses. So even if a big company wins the business, they want them to subcontract out to smaller businesses. And that was the idea around thunder cat technology. My call sign in Baghdad was Thundercats six. Hence the name under cat technology.

What products or services did you start with? How has your product or service offerings evolved over time?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
So we started off selling products that exist in and around the data center. So data storage, networking applications and again we re sold other people's technology. So think about the Netapp or an HP or a Dell or any EMC for servers and storage and then networking. Think about some folks like Riverbed or Juniper or Cisco and then some applications. But mostly we stayed in and around the data center has how the product or service evolved. Over time. We did not pivot like here we are 12 years later, and we still sell products in and around the data center. Um by I would say we're doing significantly more cyber than we were. Even, you know, 68 years ago. There's definitely been more of a focus on our cyber practice. And now, a couple years ago, we made a decision to become Cisco Gold Certified, which is an elite certification as a reseller of Cisco Products and Services. And so that has definitely Robinson now selling more, uh, Cisco. But But there's been no major pivot. I'm sure you have a lot of guests here where things have significantly evolved in terms of who we sell to that has evolved

Can you walk us through your first few weeks, especially challenges, when you started your business? How did things change over the next few months?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
mhm. My business was we acquired the business from another company that was trying to get out of the products business. They wanted to be in the services business. So we, you know, we got off to a running start. We really did get off to a running start. Obviously, we had, uh, generates, um, capital to get things going. But, you know, I'm not one of these stories where I maxed my credit cards and was working, you know, 18 hours a day, six days a week and had to mortgage my house. I'm not one of those. I can't claim to be that brave. Over the first few months, it was very important for us to, you know, get our first deals in. Because again we started with six or seven employees right off the bat. Now the majority of us were co founders and didn't necessarily need to get paid. But we did have some folks in the back office that we were expected to pay on most of our early sales reps worked on a commission on Lee plan, but things did not change that much. Over the first few months. They changed with growth over the first couple of years. But But again, I'm sure you have Cem Cem. Great hairy stories from other entrepreneurs. But we didn't really struggle out the gate. We've had other challenges over the years.

Who were your early customers? What marketing approaches, channels and promotions did you use to reach out to customers? What worked and what didn't?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
So our early customers, we were focused almost exclusively on the federal I T market. So we were selling to federal agencies. So think like Department of Defense, Army, Navy, Air Force. Think about Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection. Think about the I. R. S. Well, people don't like to think about the IRS, but the I. R s was a client. The White House, you know, health and Human Services. So when you look at all these federal agencies, that's what we were selling to in terms of marketing approaches, we were mostly focused on direct sales. The first couple years, we didn't do a ton of marketing on. When we did, we used what was called M D F market development funds, and we were using funds from our OM partners, like Dell or Cisco or NetApp er, riverbed. They would give us marketing funds, and we would leverage their marketing departments to create programs. We certainly, you know, did all the early things right. The first thing people don't think of it as a marketing tool, But first thing was stand up a website, create someone patriot, collateral, um, and then the next steps were looking at, you know, doing email drops, doing Twitter doing Facebook. Um, then we started advertising in some of the local trade journals like Federal Computer Weekly or Gove Tech or Washington Technology. We did radio spots. Um, we didn't do TV. I think that they didn't do TV toe like we were five years old. I mean, TV is expensive, and you know, the advice that I would have for any of the folks out there listening is when you think about media, which I came from. The media world selling advertising technology platforms think in terms of tarps. T R P stands for targeted rating points versus G R P s, which is gross rating points, which is just a a fancy formula for reach versus frequency. But especially in the beginning, when you have no money, don't go by general Spray and pray media or marketing programs, know who your audiences and find out what they're reading, where they're going, what they're doing and spend your money to get the target. Not, you know, don't fall for some radio person. Tell me toe do spend on on wherever. If you're small, think about direct mail or think about buying email drops. Think about if you're B two b, think about paying for some of these appointment setters. There's companies out there that will call and set appointments for you, and they'll do it on a performance basis. And I guess that's my last bit of advice. Don't don't buy something and hope. Hope is not a method early on, especially when you're getting going. Your marketing spend is very, very important. So you need to study the media consumption and behaviors of your target audience that you're Onley buying very niche specific, uh, media, um, or getting, you know, email list or or email drops or partnering with other companies that target that same audience.

How did you hire, incentivize, and track the progress of your marketing team including agencies and part-time workers to scale the customer base?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
I'll say sales team over marketing. So I'll just say sales and marketing the people that we hired early on and this is still the case 12 years later had all had extensive experience in selling, uh, information technology products and services to the federal market. In fact, when we went toe launch a sled practice state local education, the acronym Misled s led state local education. We didn't try and hire someone and develop them. We went and found somebody. They've been doing it for 10 years, and now they were just gonna do it for us and launch our practice. So my bit of advice for folks in that arena is the same thing. If you can't afford them, maybe you 10 99 them. Maybe you create some equity opportunities. But don't try and figure out a market or go into a market. If you don't have experience in it, you need someone on your board of advisors reported. Excuse me, your board of directors and that was the approach we had. We, you know, even the five co founders, we all didn't have a ton of experience and fed i t. So we surrounded ourselves with engineers and sales reps with expertise and at least a decade of experience in that marketplace. We didn't even really hire our first marketer for a couple of years. So again, most of our model was direct sales, Um, and then leveraging the partnerships with R. O. E. M s and doing some co branded marketing around that. But I do. Before we move on the next question, I do think it's very important that you understand in setting marketing objectives. What is the goal and how will you measure success? Ah, lot of our early programs were certainly focused on appointment setting. Um, but there's something to be said about brand awareness, right? You can't skip the funnel. You can't cheat the funnel, right? It starts with awareness, recall, favorability and then purchase intent, certainly especially for high consideration items. But for those marketers around this, uh, call, I would just say Make sure you understand why you're doing something, because a direct response campaign is very different than a branding campaign and then do make sure that you're measuring it. Which is why I think most people have moved to digital marketing because it's so measure

How did you finance your business at the start? How have your financing needs and fund sourcing strategies evolved over time?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
So we were self funded. The five of us all kicked in some money and again because most of our first employees, we're, um, commission only we had very little overhead again. We're not manufacturing anything. We're not designing anything. We weren't, you know, So it was really just sales and, um, an office space and we Sublette space in terms of, you know, financing. We didn't need credit lines, right? If you were gonna, you know, resell someone's product, You actually technically buy it from them, ship it, and then they keep the lion's share of the revenue. Then you get a small, tiny piece. So we needed credit lines. We needed a classic bank. How that has evolved over time is is we've gotten bigger. We needed, you know, more sophisticated credit lines and leasing options from major banks and other financing partners. But we've never done any kind of equity or, you know, anything like that with anyone else. It was the five of us that got it started. Um, you know, keep in mind I was 40 right? I'm not. It wasn't 25. I wasn't 22 recent graduate. We were all people in our late thirties early forties who had had a 20 year career, and we had a little savings built up and were able to go without revenue. In fact, when we first got started, I didn't quit my job to work on this full time until I knew that it was stable and viable. And not everyone has that option. I get it. You either gotta, you know, we were able to walk into the shallow and we didn't have toe dive off a cliff because of where we were personally and professionally and financially, yeah.

How did you manage the legal and accounting needs of your business? Would you manage your legal and accounting needs any differently if you have to do it again?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
So the answer is, we outsourced it, and the second answer is no. So those first, those My short answer is yes. So when we first got started, we just we just got it. We outsourced it. And there's plenty of companies that their business model is to provide legal accounting, back office support, including HR for start ups because you could get buried pretty quickly. Just, you know, the legal alone. I think most entrepreneurs, when they're running their business plan and they do their market analysis and they do their financial projections they forget to add in legal legal bills can be significant. And so you want to find somebody that's talented but reasonable. You don't wanna find a high end lawyer that's charging you $500 an hour. You want to find a friend of a friend or a friend of the family, But you do want to find somebody that has a business background you don't want to take. You know, your your next door neighbor who happens to be a lawyer and have them try and write your operating agreement or articles, Inc. That's I wouldn't do that, just trying to find something that is a business lawyer and is a friend or in your network that will do it at a discounted rate on gun accounting. There's plenty of outsourced accounting, you know things. And again, you want to try and keep your accounting A simple as you can in the beginning. But again, I would I would not recommend bringing those people, uh, in house early on, so no, I wouldn't do it any other way.

What kind of suppliers and vendors do you need for your business, if any? How did you negotiate terms with them when you were starting out? How terms changed over time?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
So what kind of supplies inventors do we need? The suppliers were mostly the OMC original equipment manufacturers, those, you know. So we would co market, we would Cosell on. Then when it came time, we also needed distributors that people have actually shipped the product to the customer in terms of how do you negotiate terms with them? You start off with basic market rate, like when you're a tiny little company. Part of what you're trying to do is convince them that you're financially viable and safe, that if they if they ship you something, they're going to get paid, right? So we're very fortunate in that we were selling the federal government. Uh, the federal government always pays their bills there. You know, there's the Munich things. They're frustrating about dealing with the government or public sector as your customer. But the one thing is, if you ship them the product or given the service, they're gonna pay for it. So that certainly helped us get our terms. How that changes over time and how will change over time for any of your listeners is you know, the balance shifts. You know it trying to find a bank in the beginning that's willing to take a chance on a pier startup. That's hard. But after you start depositing, you know, millions of dollars and having all kinds of cash flowing transactions and setting up additional relationship with the banks, those rates in those relationships change, you know, and the, uh, the other thing is again, as you negotiate terms when your especially your finance terms, that's where the lawyer comes in again, like, don't just sign something that somebody sends over. Read it and okay, everyone you know is planning for the wedding. But you got a plan for the divorce as well. And so this Consider a new agreement, your pre nup, if you will in a relationship. And so it's not about what if things go right, contracts are for things. Don't go right on. The thing that I would tell you is if you can try and get an arbitration clause in there as well, because if you're getting sued by somebody or you find yourself in litigation, you're a tiny little company. You could maybe not even afford a lawyer to defend yourself on. You could be right, and the other people are wrong, but they know you can't afford a $20,000 legal bills, so they'll try and bully you with legal processes. So I would just recommend that you go and get arbitration or mediation clauses in your early contracts so that if you do you know, then you're looking at a 5 to $10,000 bill, not a 50 to $100,000 bill defending yourself when you know you're right.

What were the challenges in building the initial team and how did you overcome them? How did the team's composition, responsibilities and team-culture evolve?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
So the initial team, Once again, we sort of inherited from the company that we bought the products group from on. They were all super talented folks in terms of, you know, the challenges. You know? Look, your name is Thunder cat technology. People think you're cartoon joke, and they didn't know the story about it being my call sign. So people like Wait, you know how Why would I want to risk my career? My, you know, finances to get in behind these folks. So that's the main challenges. You know, the initial team, the five of us started, so that wasn't the hard part. But in terms of building out and going from seven toe, let's call it 17 or 20 the for the next 10 people. You know, you've just got to convince them of your vision, your strategy and your stability. Um, if you are a pure startup, you've got to convince them of your vision in terms of the composition. Actually, the it hasn't changed that much over half our folks who were there in sales or sales engineers. Um, over time we had to build a project management office. Over time, we had to build a proposal department? Um, well, even But even in the first year or first couple hires, we didn't even have an inside sales team. So the first department really had to build up after we got started was we hired someone to build out our inside sales team and again using the model. I said we didn't know how to do that so we wouldn't found somebody that hurry done it, and she built it from scratch. Um, initially, one of our co founders led our sales engineers and our technology team. He moved on, and so then we needed to promote or hire someone to run that team. The team culture. It's definitely results, only work environment. We don't particularly care where people are 9 to 5 if they get their job done. Um, there's certainly some accountability to that. Andi, I do think that we're very much familial like people, you know, work hard, party hard. I'm a child of the eighties. Eso I'm a gen xer and the work hard party hard attitude, and we do. We work hard and we expect a lot of everyone, but we're the same group of people that will play golf together. Go grab a beer together after work or hang out on the weekends. And so it has evolved to a place where we'd like people that we'd like to think people when they come into the office, enjoy the people they're they're around and they respect them. Um, and they want to be around other smart, talented, hard working folks. So that's you know how the team culture is involved in the only thing I would recommend it again. This is advice that I got from a guy named Nickname when I was in a startup called Dynamic Logic. Don't just let the hiring manager make the choice. Make sure you make a person interview with 34 people to make sure that they're a good fit for you, because attitude and other parts are just as important as their experience and skill set. You wanna make sure they're good cultural fit because that matters. It really does. When we do that same thing, anybody would hire anybody. We hire has to meet with every single department head, and it doesn't matter if the hiring managers in love with this candidate any no is a no. So you might have four yeses, and I know the persons and no, and we don't, you know, let people, uh, emotional choices or try and run rough shot over our 3 60 hiring process.

What qualities do you look for while hiring your team members? What kind of questions do you typically ask from candidates?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
in terms of skills are very important for us, right? Because we are in the technology field. So we are certainly looking for a set of experiences or certifications or experiences. We definitely higher square pegs square hole. But after you look at their resume, you know the four people you're gonna bring in all meet that skill and experience requirement. After that, you are looking to hire for attitude. And certainly one of the characteristics and qualities we're looking for is grit, someone that has persistence and resilience and a focus on long term goals. Someone that is not going to be thrown off by short term failures or setbacks, particularly in your sales reps. Right? Because you know, even your best sales reps 80% of the time they hear no eso. You gotta have a resilient, tough exterior to know that you know, only one out of 10 people you talk to is actually gonna end up buying from you. What kind of questions do I typically ask? I think that these air three softball questions people do fumble on them, I'd say, What are your top three drinks? What are your top three weaknesses? Um, I asked him to talk about a failure they had and how they reacted to it. And then the last question I always ask is What are you looking for? I say, forget about this job. You're not getting this job. So now you're talking to your friend. You're talking to your spouse, you're sitting over beer and you say, You know what I'm really looking for. You know what I would love complete that thought. I tell them complete that thought because maybe turn out that we love them and it's a great fit and we think it's great. But when I hear about what their career and personal wolves are, I realized maybe this isn't a fit for them. And sometimes I've let go of great candidates because of that answer. It wasn't that I didn't think they would be great for us. I didn't think we would be great for their Yeah,

Who were your competitors when you started and how did the competition evolve? How did you create a competitive advantage and a unique selling proposition?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
this is Ah ha. This is a hard question. Um, right. So who our competitors are? Our competitors with other bars evaluated resellers and those were big ones like W W T and C D. W. But it was also smaller bars evaluated resellers in the federal marketplace, and there were a lot of them and then a smaller subset. And our direct competitors were other S. D. V O S B service disabled veteran owned small businesses that we're selling into the federal marketplace. That's who our direct competitors were, and the competitors were still the same. Some have disappeared. Some have gotten stronger. Some have not kept up pace. But it's still a lot of the same players, and it's anyone that is a reseller in the federal marketplace. How did I create a competitive advantage and unique selling proposition? I mean, the when you're a bar who you go out with to the marketplace is how you're looked at. So if if you go out and push a ton of E m. C, you're seen as an E. M C reseller. If you go out and sell a ton of netapp, you're seen as a netapp reseller So we tried to create a competitive advantage by making sure that we were seen as independent and objective and that we were selling all the different vendors based upon the right fit for the customer, so that we weren't seen as somebody that was biased towards one partner or another. Three unique selling proposition was again our unique focus on the federal marketplace and the talent of our sales reps and our sales engineers. You know, they really we went out of our way to make sure that we on Lee hired the best of the best the elite in our space. And that's not something you can put on a marketing slick or put on a website. So it took 567 years before we built up that reputation of being the best of what we dio. And it wasn't because of anything that we did in the marketing. It was it was the actions day in and day out of the talented sales reps and talent, talented sales engineers that were in front of our customers and prospects so they could see that we could become a trusted adviser for them. We really struggled right because when you've got 10,000 other people that are out there or ah, 100 other disabled veterans running a bar. It was hard to distinguish ourselves and and present a unique selling proposition, because again we don't have any intellectual property. There was nothing unique about what we did. So our unique selling proposition became competitive advantage from operations and competitive advantage through our expertise and experience in the federal marketplace.

What were the major exciting and memorable moments? Were there also any moments that almost got you to quit? How did you get past them?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
so I mean, I think Day one is always an exciting thing. You know, again, we started it pretty quickly. I think the most exciting a memorable moments are always on September 30th. The government works on October 1st fiscal year, and they spend a lot of their money in that last month. And then there's a flurry of activity in the last two weeks of September. Is people spend their their last of their fiscal year budget? And so those air very exciting, their nerve racking. Right? Because if some deals go sideways, you could have a very bad year. Were there any moments that almost got you to quit? No. Again. You know, I wish I could tell you some fundamental story about trying to figure out how we're gonna make payroll or some struggles we had. Look, there's been challenges and bumps, but it and there were times where we didn't think we would survive, but that I wasn't gonna quit. Right? And I don't think anyone else waas. And when we had some struggles, um, I thought maybe we would lose some folks, but they didn't know one quit. We had a two years stretch there where it was a little rough going and not a single person quit. And I one of my biggest principles or values, that I talk about what people is loyalty, and I will be forever grateful to those members of my team during that time frame and, more importantly, the people that even chose to join us knowing that we were going through this, the struggles and still joined. So I have, ah, special place in my heart for those folks that stuck with us during those time frames, but I I personally never thought about quitting.

What responsibilities and decisions did you handle at work? What were the challenges? What strategies were effective in dealing with these challenges?

Based on experience at: Chief Operating Officer / Board of Directors,
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
you know, a chief operating officer. If you think about it, the CEO sets division in the strategy, and the chief operating officer keeps the trains running on time. Um, some of media was a pure start up, and it was hard it was using set top box data to target TV ads. I think that the main challenges you know now people accept that you're getting cooking online and on your phone. But people really hadn't thought about using set top box data and TV viewership data in the Target TV ads. And so we were definitely an early pioneer, uh, strategies in terms of dealing with these challenges again, it's it's setting smart goals, figuring out who the major players in the ecosystem are and making sure that you had made sure they understood the value proposition and what you were trying to dio. There was a lot of pushback from traditional media companies who did not want to see TV, um adds commoditized or targeted in the way that they felt online ads were. But now here we are, 10 years later, and everyone, all the major media companies, have some type of technology platform that they're using to target their TV ads

Who are the target beneficiaries of your nonprofit? Can you share a few stories about how your nonprofit has made a difference for them?

Based on experience at: Co-Founder, TD Foundation
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
So TV Foundation Eyes, a nonprofit that helps the Children of wounded warriors and Gold Star families. Gold Star means lost, preparing combat. And basically what we do is we help veteran families that are in crisis in terms of some stories average. We help between 50 to 75 families a year, and it's an average of you know, $2000 thes. They're folks that we help with mortgages with rent, with medical care with school supply. Um, most of it. And we worked with a network of other nonprofits that find the cases so co to support Operation Second Chance, um, wounded veteran family care and and some others the main way that we help people and we prevent a lot of homelessness. We pick up medical care when folks like Tricare or the VA don't we fill in the gaps when someone might have lost their job? I mean, keep in mind that the culture is severely wounded. He can't work, and his spouse is busy trying to take care of him. So she's doing that full time and maybe to have 12 or three or more kids, and they're living at or just below the poverty level, So when any unexpected costs come up, it's really hard for them to deal with that. So again, we're mostly working with families that are in crisis, but we also do things around quality of life. We prayed for a girl who attend a cheerleading camp. We bought stocker uniforms and supplies for kids so they could be on the travel team with their friends. We've bought Chromebooks. We bought iPads for kids that because all the kids in school needed them and the family couldn't afford them. But a lot of really what we do is prevent homelessness or fill in the gaps for medical care for families that can't afford it.

How did the school prepare you for your career? Think about faculty, resources, alumni, exposure & networking. What were the best parts in each of your college programs?

Based on experience at: MBA, Management and Interactive Marketing, NYU Stern School of Business
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
Okay, great question. So my advice to anyone listening is definitely the importance of formal education. But more importantly, uh, continual learning. Uh, throughout your career, you need Thio. You need to read. You need to read. You need to read when I go out to keynote speech is one of the things I always leave people with is a challenge to get into the office early. When it's quiet, no one's there and spend an hour a day reading the trade journals reading White papers, press releases, come an expert at your chosen field or industry. Continual learning is very important. So my first, my undergraduate waas engineering management and mechanical engineering You don't want me near anything with moving parts, which should never work as a mechanical engineer. Um, but I was good at math and science, so that's the path I chuck. When I got to Europe, when I was still in the military, I looked at some various programs and I got my first master's in systems management at University of Southern California. So fight on, um, and I learned a lot from that. Part of that was just persistence because I was stationed in Berlin and I had to go to school every Tuesday and Wednesday night for three hours for two years. But half of my classes I had to take out in West Germany 7 to 9 hour drive away. So my two of my friends and I believe Berlin 11 or 12 midnight drive all night, go to school all day Saturday, half day Sunday and then drive back to Berlin. We did that for two years. So I part of that is you know, that persistence and grit that I talked about because a lot of people would start the program and drop out or realize that they couldn't get it done. And the three of us were like, We're going to do this and we put together a two year plan and we knocked it out. Um, so the networking wasn't great. They're dirty. The group of people I was in the military with my MBA at N Y U Same thing. I got a part time. So I was there from 1996 to 2000, so I was there for a long time. But some of my best friends now are the same folks that I met during that time frame because, like me, they were working full time and going to school part time. So there was that commiserating. But also, there were plenty of opportunities for us to interact with the full time student. Um, but yes, I was in sales, and my MBA really gave me the platform and all the building blocks to truly think about businesses holistically and strategically from sales and marketing through the operations, logistics legal on, of course, leadership. So I can't say enough about my n Y X experience. It was awesome.