CAMECA, Ametek Group Company , Div VP Global Marketing & Strategy
Northwestern University - Kellogg School of Management , Executive Education-Leadership, Strategy & Marketing Management
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How did you get to where you are today? What is your story? What incidents and experiences shaped your career path?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
you know, like there's nothing unusual about my career or anything like that. You know, you basically choose a career off your liking, right? So right from the beginning, I was inclined to his technology on I always wanted to be a scientist, you know? And then when you're looking at, you know, long term and short term goal and victim goals, right? You know, I I knew that. Okay? I wanted to be in this particular area of technology, you know, physics, quantum mechanics or whatever on whatever comes along with it, right? Eventually, I wanted to go and get into the management because, you know, there you have some kind of a decision making, you know, everybody and basically direct or organization or your career part and and so on. Right? So I started with basically a scientist on. Then I moved over to eventually in the business side of the business. Yeah. Industry. Yeah,

What responsibilities and decisions does one handle in a job like yours? Tell us about weekly work hours, including the time spent on work travel and working from home.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
now everything Is everything a change? Of course. Right. You know that. So that's an anomaly. So we're not going to talk about it, But typically because of the multi location, you know, business, You know, there are different plants and different manufacturing facilities. And basically, the current job is a mishmash of three companies. You know, one is in France, One is in the U. K. One is in the U. S. So there are three different cultures, basically three different product lines. Three different technologies, right? It makes it really interesting. Basically, along with, you know, off course, the technology. Interesting. No matter what, but your vitality and how similar. I mean, I have three different teams, right? I mean, there are part of managers. There are application scientists on DSO on. There is probably no self specialists. And so on on this job until basically it's a marketing. But it's a technology marketing. So it's slightly different over the years, my friend. Always Oh, you're in sales and marketing. But take that away from typical sales and marketing job because you have to have very well, deeply rooted into the technology. You know where that industry is going? What are the recent publications? What technology? What competitors are doing. And then you have to have some kind of way to a track. Or developments are going on in a light industry and what you can use those. So, in this job, typically, I would say I worked 55 to 60 hours a week. I traveled about safely. Say, 50 to 60% you know, depending on. I mean, it's a new job in a relatively speaking, because its first two years. So you have to do whatever you have to do, and it touches marketing touches, obviously are in the research and development operations management cells heavily. So does that answer your question? I mean, you know that. I'm presuming that. Yeah. Okay, Yeah. Okay. Mhm.

What are the challenges in a job like yours? What approaches are effective in dealing with these challenges? Discussing examples will help students learn better.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
I think, You know, of course, primary challenges about understanding the culture, each country, even within the country. Each region has its own culture. Right? So when people are talking to you, you have to understand, you know, Is it Are there trying to be rude or this is like a way of expressing and communicating, right? Luckily, I work. My very, very first job was in Germany, basically on then with the British company, an American company and then Japanese company. It prepared me. It's so interesting how people tell you what they need to tell you how much urgency that is, you know. So you have to be sensitive to the culture. You have to understand. You know the nuances on then from your side, you have to be crystal clear, you know, first of all, who has ownership? What is the final goal here? You know what we're doing? You know why we're doing. You have to keep reminding people about that. So I go to France initially. It was very interesting. Let's put it that way, you know? But then he had to tell them Hey, ultimately, this company has been bought over by American management Onda. We are, you know, respecting you for what you achieve technologically and all that. But understand that. You know, the decision making will be done by certain people on. We had to just follow through and you had to put it in a very nice way. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What tools (software programs, frameworks, models, algorithms, languages) are typically used in a role like yours?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
particularly in the marketing deals within a product management. So, you know, there is, of course, whatever new new product development, new product introduction. Right. So get process off course, you have to have, you know, So some project management tools on I'm not going to, you know, even if I say, for example, that's not the ultimate, too. I mean, I mean, right now I just had discussion with people from like, you know, because that's a new and I try to keep, you know, ah, breast of the situation. And then sometimes I go toe ideas. Hey, guys, try to find our You know, these 23 companies, you know, there's some boutique type of tool, you know, Is there really an advantage to change? Everybody's using sap. You know, everybody is using, you know, uh, CRM tools. Right? So these are the typical tools, you know, and then marketing dashboards, health dashboard. You had to have those. So those are the tools you have to be aware of what it does. Limitations on one or two tools. You have to have some kind off proficiency to you, no matter what. Basically, so that you know exactly what you want. You can define it better. Yeah,

What are the job titles of people who someone in your role routinely works with, within and outside of the organization? What approaches are effective in working with them?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
you are the you know, as a VP you work with, of course, within your company you're president of the company. You work with your board. If it's a metrics organized and then you know there are layers off, right? And of course, every two or three months you meet. You know, if it's a big group, multiple companies come together for marketing workshops and management workshops and so on. So you meet and you know you in those brakes. You talk, you know, you have communicate in for money. As far as customers and businesses concerned, typically you meet with your counterparts like it can be depending on the organization structure your customers organized structure. Sometimes it can be a director of RND engineering. Uh, you know, purchasing, Of course. Sometimes, you know, you I meet very early, but you know, myself guys definitely meet them. But yes, we be of, or any we pay off engineering if medium size small company owner of the company or their management on what value bring those kinds of things and at the same time, don't underestimate value off their product managers because they are the people who will say, Oh, this is what where we want to go and so on. Yeah,first of all, I mean, you know, and that's not only working with them in general, I would say any meeting, any meeting prepared Find out everything about organization, find out everything about the people you are going to deal with, what they like, what they don't like, you know, because what happens is, you know, I've seen being in the technology field some of my people over the years. I saw they're good scientists. Are there good product, Mary. But then they will have problem with having soft talk soft documents in between, away from them business. So if you need to do that, you have to relate to the people because ultimately everything, all the models are there. But people will buy from the people who they like is there is some emotional element into it. You know how much a I we do and what sort off analysis we do, no matter what I think people like too late on. That relationship is more important, you know? Yeah. So basically, that that's what it is. Should

How would you describe your management style? How has it evolved over the years? Can you tell about experiences or books that influenced your management style?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
books are coming in, they will come and going. There are different trends. You know. It's a common sense, more or less. And there are. And don't take me wrong. I mean, there are really good books, you know? Yeah. You know, I mean, like, Okay, ours and all that I saw. Your question is so I know that, you know, everybody is now following that. But you know, basically, major, what matters and stuff like that. Those kind of books on It's not a new thing. Onley thing. The advantage of reading those books is you know, the thought process you have in your mind or whatever you are learning from your experience. Somebody has put it in a concise way so that you can give it to your team. A real this. This what exactly I'm trying to tell you know, on that's where basically the books will come handy. Management style. I would say my my name style is always participating. You have to have otherwise people will not speak up. You know, if you are in a top down type of management, of course the goals you know, what are those are those are very, very defined, right? These are help. Financial repercussions and so on. You know, so But the manager, you should allow people to talk on the lowest of the lowest in your team, able to express their views her, you know, he or she on. I have something. You know, I used to basically visit a lot of companies in California. You know, some outside many of the companies has this guidelines for the meetings on I try to basically follow through that basic. You know, once you're in a meeting room, we're on equal footing. You know, you can say, don't worry about you know, you're going toe often me, because otherwise there will be a group Think, you know, on I would like to take advantage off. There are a lot of smart people you gather, right. You you go through on hire people, you know, meticulously. And if you're not allowing them to express, you are basically short selling yourself. So that's where you know. So that's what and all the years you love from your mistake as well. Of course

How do you manage conflicts within and across teams? How do you promote trust, openness and a healthy work culture? Sharing stories will greatly help.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
Oh, this is, uh, this way We can have a seminar on this. I get two days, but face that right, because what happens is a different actually different departments. As you know, different objectives right on the production has cost cutting objectives. You know, sales. As you know, time limit revenue objectives. But I think that's why senior management, you know, it's a honestly on senior management, basically, to actually you know, what is the vision of the company? What is the goal? Short term goal for this year for this quarter. For this next to six months, we have to keep on repeating that in front of our employees in front of our team on interdepartmental e. Then those conflict will get resolved in the sense people will get a line on. Actually, the book I mentioned just now, you know? Okay, ours and all that. Yeah, whether What matters? Actually, that outline with lots of good example in that, you know, because what happens is every department. Otherwise, we'll look for their, you know, and it's like a short sightedness. But if you know, the aural goal is to make this happen, you know? Company, right? So these are the one or two really top goals and everything that followed through and really it matters. And then what happens? Along with that, we'll get carried. So you have to be completely impartially. It's human nature, right? Or I did more in this than that. So you make sure you talkto every member of your team as much as possible, and I don't buy that. We don't have a time. You know, we have a lot of time, you know, informal. So you don't have to wait for the formal review or something. You know, I engage team members anywhere. I am in different countries or different locations. I talkto everybody, you know, I basically I Another thing is like lunch breaks, right? So it's a big company and typically I saw, like, you know, I I'll give one example. You know, I used to go to Paris and management people, you know, from Paris. And, you know, whoever from us wish to sit together after a month and a half. I excuse myself, and my person didn't ask me where you're going. I said I know you guys right, But I'm interested in you know what those already guys they're talking about, you know? And now, of course, this is from some people that comfortable speaking their own language. Right? So you off course you get hold off. You know, product when it speaks good English and say, Do you mind that nobody's going to say no? But this is your opportunity to learn what informally they are thinking. You know, where they like this project. If there are some constants and this is the informal information, we'll take you along the way. So I started telling that even company dinners and this and that, You know, at least my last company where, you know, I had much more say And, you know, I was much more senior there. I was saying, because it was a medium sized organizational on company parties and dinners. I used to say what we don't We meet every week, you know, and we talked about this management study. This is the time to meet, you know, products in person. They get to know their family, or are there consents? Are you with this? You know, medical insurance. So on desire, the project, there's this purse on. I think that's the best way. You know you have toe to be in touch with the reality. You have to be touched with your employees basically and your team moved off, so that's that's very

How can one get better recognition of work from one's boss and higher management? What mistakes should one avoid? Stories or examples will be quite helpful.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
So there are two things one is like Okay, very formal answers to this on informal answer its first upon many people, of course, change jobs because, you know, off the job. You know, the boss, that's the primaries and whatever they say, you know, said and done, basically, you know, But how much your immediate supervisor is, you know, secure, insecure and all that. But that's the luck factor right from your side. What you can do is you can always prepare for the meeting. As I said, you know, speak up your mind. You know, of course, when your turn comes and stipulated time and all that now, at least in this area, there is a great tool off emails. Right? When you're done with certain things, you can let people know your team members and somebody beyond that off course. Ask your boss whether he's okay with that. And you can always find a way to communicate from team members from other departments. And word of mouth will go around. People didn't know beyond your supervisor that you're doing a good job or not. Always, if you're a scientist, if you're an engineer on your contribution, will be, you know, But initially, don't worry about that. Do you agree to go extra mine? You know, because that's how it is. I was lucky because my advisor was opposed. He came from G. He was already weepy. So he ran our research group. You know, there were, I think 27 people in a research group be visiting faculty from in a different countries. Exposed dogs and what not? He ran it as a company. My He used to be very busy, multi tasking, But he's to remember, You know why you think he's not paying attention? And then end of your presentation, He'll say Okay. San Diego, back to slide number six. Except this. This this. Then why did you say that? And then you know, so he was staying. So there are people. My point is, you prepare whenever you're your chances there and then other thing he mentioned. You know, sometimes you mentioned that Oh, I used to see you. That whether it's ah, Hellstorm, anything. You were there even Saturday early morning. You know, I had a habit of going 64. 30 in the morning is to go to my lab. You know, you get all your work done by noon afternoon. You know, being a graduate student business during the year to teach, you know, finally, whatever you know, chemical in your experience and all these things. So when you can do all the other things, attend your other classes and stuff like that, But you get a sizable work done early in the morning. My mind? Well, you know, he was so successful, but Saturday isn't that used to be there? He was. No. He will come randomly in his office. And you think, you know, in my life was on the other side of the building, but she used to know and then, you know, okay, people are paying attention. And I'm not saying, you know, in work environment, you know, there is the people think that Oh, yeah, coming early and then living late is the norm. Then that only way you can do no, you can be very discipline. You can really get work done on. There's nothing wrong. But whenever there's the time, there's a crunch time, you know? Then what with it, You know. So I have team. I always allow people because with the family there are the obligations, and you have to understand you're too late. But when the French time is there, you expect. And then I stay. If I'm going to go through this, you know I don't have to tell my team. You know, there is what car? And most of the people have good intentions. I mean, with that premise, yeah.people will understand, You know, sooner or later they recognize. But initially, when you're doing the transition from university to the work, you know, go extra mile. You know, girl in the morning, no matter what you know and do your job diligently, basically, you'll get noticed. I think so, yeah.

What indicators are used to track performance in a job like yours? Think of the indicators such as key performance indicators (KPIs), objectives & key results (OKRs), or so on.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
Let's talk about my kid being late. It z always. The revenue is always the profitability is always the product line performance. Always. How much? When it came from the new product line we launched last year doing this back. So you major, you track everything. Asada's my okay. Marketing director says directing product managers and so on. You have these certain things like, you know, they have you under task, right? You know, basically the new concept, how soon they will be so the time management, because everything is related The budget, you know, So why revenue is important, Why profitability is important because it has, of course, other side of it. It is into operations. You know what tools you're going to buy? You know what it could mean. You're going to buy what expensive you're going to do. How many people are going to hire if your forecast is not right and you don't come through, you know, people would like to know sooner than later on other part of it is, in fact, so much so that I mean, of course, we send our reports, you know, every week, every two weeks, you know, But even people like Thio. If it's a public, limited company, if you're going to do better for that quarter, then also didn't like to know why, but that you can insulate your team from that. That's your responsibility, how to deal with that. But on that level, on day to day practical level, everybody has to follow to come through. You know, the time management and and the budgeting right? You know, you said that you are going to launch a product in every 2021. You better any by February. You know, you have to have that internal goal because anything can go wrong. You have to have some backup. And if not, you have possible reasons. Not that you know people will be unreasonable and it happens all the time. I mean, in software industry, I'm sure you are from software industry. Are, you know, imprisoning again? Sorry, but you know, there are these releases and all that, not the product is not perfect. Where it's from hard side or software side. There's always some glitches. There is always some unfinished working all that. But, you know, getting that schedule is really, really important. So that's what So those years are related to that? As far as people, the revenues. How much? You know, the contact period they have once they get qualified late. Did they contacted the customers? They circle back. You can track all these things unionized. Yeah. So I don't know where you know. That's what the answer you were looking for or anything else you can muscle. Yeah. Okay. Good. Oh.

What skills and qualities do you look for while hiring? What kind of questions do you typically ask from candidates?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
you know, because, you know, with the experience, you know whether the person is right from the team and all that. Of course, every company most of the companies do have 3 60 degree, right? You know, basically, I know what kind of person I want, you know, which will gel with the team. That's the first thing first. But what two things I look for is honesty and integrity, because those are the things you cannot teach. Most of the other technology, technical things, technical proficiency skills, said most of the you know, when you filter, you're a child, filter through all that, and those people are there. And then so you can see when you talk to them. How which material is there behind? You know what? They're putting it on their paper, right? You know, on the resume that, uh so you can see that on. You can ask them questions and then life experiences, and you can gauge basically, But if the person is relating to the team members relating to you, you will know whether it's a There's the integrity and there is honesty. Are is just, uh, slick. Willie, you know, sometimes it happens you know your judgment can go wrong. Sometimes you hire a person thinking that Oh, wow, super duper in all that. But then it doesn't come through. And that's why the character is the most important thing. I think I'm most of the company's value, that they may not be saying it, but that really matters in long term, and that defines the team on the dynamics, Okay.Yeah. I mean, you know this. You know, there's always people say that, you know that. Oh, we can get an engineer and teaching everything right. You know, whatever we need to. And that's why people have because it's, uh they go through that system and acknowledge development and all that, and then they, you know, come through by the time they come out of the school. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. No.

Can you discuss career accomplishment(s) that you feel good about? Please discuss the problem context, your solution, and the impact you made.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
Okay, That's okay. That's what you know. Long time back. Very Linda. My career area. That's where I got recognition. Basically, I saved two lawsuits to my company I was working for at that time. I think, as I mentioned, you know, the products we're selling, you know, like close to a quarter million and a half million dollar product ride on. We sold it. Thio. I think our sales department sold it to also live. That was the issue. You know, the customer came back after a month and say it's not working. I waas that time Business development person as well as application scientists. My looks were from technology, So I have been there for a week. I worked there from morning to eight oclock to 10 o'clock and I see because each instrument has to be calibrated and do you know certain those instruments goes on process control and R and D dies on. They were saying this will not do the job. And now it's up to me to prove to their scientists, which is a multinational company, which was 10 times because, you know, I mean, we are basically in a niche business, you know, you make inspection tools and all that. So these companies are not more than $1 billion companies. The idea. This is a multi billion dollar companies and this is the scientist they trust and people who came to assess that. And what happened? The real problem. Waas. After they bought our instrument, they got highly capable instrument. You know, they used instrument and they wanted to buy that. So it was really their heart was set on that. I mean, we knew that. Yeah, of course you pay more and then that particular. But when you come to us, you didn't tell us that. Now this is your heart. Everything said and done. We spend money and all that, and now you're saying Take this back. So even if you know it's a management decision, so my job is to prove them wrong. So I took their samples and, you know, and you had to do certain changes from physics. Point of view and spectroscopy do certain Frida's long story short. Finally, I talked to the the scientists and I said, you know, let's be honest, you know, I know that, but this basically this, you know, basis of science and fact is absolutely on in on the fifth day I prove it to him. You know, this is possible at the same time. I said what you guys are looking for is not this. Yes, I can make it happen. And he had a very valid point. He said, Yeah, you have years of experience with this technology. With HD and all that. You can make it happen. But can any Tom Dick Harry, I said, yeah. Once we set it up, we once we calibrated it will. But there is always, always will be ingredient. So then they accepted that he signed up. So now they know what? Okay, now on this is on me. I came back. I told my boss and my senior management that was okay. So I said, I think even after this, we should still take the instrument. Back off course says people do not like that, right? Oh, so I explain why I'm saying this and I said this thing up to you After two weeks, I learned that my company decided to pull them coming back because and then that customer remember that in long term they came back and what other three instruments from us in next two years. But that was one example, I can tell you, you know. No. Yeah. So is this interesting? You know, basically and you go through right all the time. And then there was another in students also similar to that. But one school. And then I learned that, you know, it's not enough to be right. You know, you have to look at the context. Why is happening? Why those people are saying you to put yourself in their shoes and so on. Then come back to the right recommendation and so on. Basically, So those you know there is indeed, there are common sense things. They're all the soft skills, right? But my problem is really from legal perspective. What was important is to show that your company is right. And then you have to do this. You know eso

What responsibilities and decisions did you handle at work? What were the challenges? What strategies were effective in dealing with these challenges?

Based on experience at: VP-GM Sales, Marketing & Business Development , Moxtek Inc.; Nippon Kayaku Group Company
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
So basically, my one of my job was to look into future. You know what technologies we had to acquire where we had to go? Uh, first of all, the established the current product line, new products and everything that goes hand in hand. But then in order to do that, whether our already is capable of it are mode. So do certain changes without hurting the egos off head of the R and D, and, you know, making sure they're comfortable about him. So those were the things and then go back to Japan sometimes and make them see the vision to make them understand. We have to act now in order to be successful off the three years, you know, because, as I mentioned in the beginning, you know, every company on his own culture, Japanese culture, you know, they decide what they are going to have for breakfast after five years on Friday morning, right? That's how regimented they are. It's a good thing they take care of their, you know, But sometimes you to act quickly and all that and they're good people, so you have to understand how to approach and all that. So it goes back into. But those were the really challenges on what with my counterpart in operations management in production. Because for them, let's number off, you know, Hey, everybody talks about Linux for action and this and 16 mind all that. So they're different, and our focus is, Oh, do this and ship it that will recognize the revenue. And so so you have to a French in production. You have to understand you to speak their lingo. Same thing with are indeed so Those were the things on. Those were the challenges, actually, Sometimes, believe me when you're taking the project when you're trying to sell something, any idea selling inside the company is more difficult than it's outside. Because I can tell you because we have, um, customers I worked with majority off the consumer electronics company. You know their top 10 company in the world. It's easy, you know, and then you can align. But in order to align your product line with Levi's, you have to have your or Indian products and ready for that. So that's what it is, you know,

How did the school prepare you for your career? Think about faculty, resources, alumni, exposure & networking. What were the best parts in each of your college programs?

Based on experience at: MBA, Managerial Finance-Strategy, DePaul University - Charles H. Kellstadt Graduate School of Business
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
for me, it was fun. You know, basically it was exactly, um, yes. So people used to come from different parts of the country. Everybody waas somebody in their own field. So different projects you worked on. Basically, you get, uh, their perspective. You grow because of their perspective, because not necessarily. Always think from your background perspective. Right. So that was definitely useful. And some of the professes, you know, it does your life and the length they go to communicate and give you the knowledge. You know, I can tell you one example on, then. I'm sure we're on time crimes here, but there was one finance professor, and so he has to prepare. You know, we used to have four hour lecture, right? You know, it's a Saturday for our one lecture for our lecture, but on the white board, in order to cover their, you know, huge curriculum, he's to record four hours lecture. In addition to that, you can imagine that preparation is to go through. I know that about the stock options and, you know, real options. Oh, my God. Very complicated subject. But the lane goes to one or two or three professors went to give us that knowledge. So you remember that and then say OK, so when I will be in the industry, I will have that integrity and that kind off hard working preparation that hard work here. Yeah, so I think, yeah.Yeah, I usually, you know, it's up to the person what to look for and what to, you know, You have to go beyond little bit. Yeah. There is always time to complain, you know. And they can always You cannot be happy about everything. You know, video going through this as a student. Of course, it's not going to be perfect. But then there are certain against you. Really? You can pick along to me. That's not our sleep. Yeah.

What three life lessons have you learned over your career? Please discuss the stories behind these lessons, if possible. Stories could be yours or observed.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
three. I mean, okay, I can say I mentioned that along our discussion Basically are informal chat. Whatever. One thing I say, I will still say going from mild, You know, in whatever you're doing, be honest to yourself. You know, uh, I appreciate that the person and then always look for the try to understand other person point of view and that needs patients. So if you are patients, you nothing will for fall in place. So don't get, you know, to actually about, You know, I'm not getting this promotion, that promotion and all that. Eventually things will fall in place. And it does. If you do your job from your side, you know, you do your 100% off the equation. I would say another side will fall in place sooner or later. It's not going to be perfect. Life is not perfect, but it will. So his patients Harvard Collection mind

What starting job (after internship) would you recommend to students who hope to grow professionally like you? What other parting advice, dos, and don'ts would you give?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Sat Sep 12 2020
again, again. It's a very open ended question in this thing because it depends. You know what? Major people are graduating, and you know what industry they would like to go and all that, right? So I'm sure when student is coming out, there are two types of students. One foreign nationals they are going for. They were in New York. Those who are actually a little bit to choose they would look at, you know? Okay, this is the field. Ultimately, I want to go. So they will apply for only those industries and stuff. So any job Very well, you get a chance. You know, join. See if what you like or don't like. But you will know that, you know, during the interview process, whether you are you're going to like that, you know? Yeah. Listen to your inner voice. I would say that these are the people you would like to go on work with the next three years on. And at least in my industry, I say that, you know, if you want to make a difference or any, learn anything on and every you have to have at least 5 to 6 years. I won't say that in today's world, I think in software, especially if you spend two years or three years in the company. That's the optimal period of three years. At least everybody has to have to have a sizable experience and make your mind you know what you like don't like and, you know, and so on. So I would suggest that definitely when people are selecting data measure, they know what they wanted to be on, applied to those industries. Go. And if you're getting a break, depending on the situation, Okay, You know, if the job market is bad, if you get for a job better, you take whatever job. But if you have, you can be picky. Then look for those signals. You know, when you're going through the interview process, whether you like it or not, you know, company culture, their philosophy. And so you know, there's a really important thing because yeah, so that's what it is.