MattStorms.com , Growth Marketing & SEO Consultant, SEO / SEM Expert Witness, SEO Technical Professional
Colorado State University Master of Business Administration (MBA) Candidate, Marketing
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How did you get to where you are today? What is your story? What incidents and experiences shaped your career path?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
I got to where I'm at today. Uh, I would say, because I had a hard life on DSO I grew up very, very poor. Andi. I always wanted to work. To get ahead on about is something that pushed me throughout my entire life s. So I joined the military. I did seven, almost seven years in the U S. Navy. I got out. I went to college on I did what would be a five year degree, and I did it in three years. So I worked really hard in school on the incidents that shaped around. That was because I saw a lot of folks that I grew up with be very, very poor on E end up in prison and things like that. And I did not want to be there. I wanted to break that cycle in my life. And so, uh, to get to where I'm at today in the S e o world, uh, incidences there is that I focused on learning in education and trying to understand how to help companies how to help other people. That's what I focused onYeah. So I would say a big experience that I had was when When I was in the Navy, I had to order a lot of products. I had order maps, every map, every aviation chart from the entire world. And I did not know how to use Excel. And back at that time, I literally bought the Excel for Dummies book and a few other books on how to learn how to use Excel. And I got very skilled at writing, you know, macros and all those types of things and b b A s. And I learned how to do all that. And I did that because I had to order about 50,000 maps and to type each one of those out would have taken years. And I learned how to do it. Math, using the skills on DSO. And it shortened the time down to just a few months. And I learned a lot, and I carried that skill through. And then when I was in college, I took a class about electronic marketing, and this is back in 08 when they were teaching Dreamweaver of all things which hopefully nobody's using today. But unfortunately, There's always still a few, and I was able to pull and learn about S E O. It took a class and other classes well, about marketing my degree program of sports marketing and took a class there, and we talked about this professor, brought up this form of marketing called SCL uh, for Internet marketing on he said it was a dying art, and this was in 2007. He said the Internet was a fat on that 8 4070 said the Internet was a fat on, that the Internet would go away anyways. Well, as we all know, he was vastly wrong on DSO, I focused on building out A was some websites. I literally went home and about how to build websites for Dummies PHP and and learned how to code. And it builds a couple websites, and I went in six months. I sold them, made a little bit of money, not much, just a little bit and realized that I could focus on the CIO portion, hire engineers in great locations around the world on, do things at a faster rate, hiring people to do that and to grow businesses. And so, um, that's what I've done. There was some of the big incidences

What responsibilities and decisions does one handle in a job like yours? What are the challenges? What strategies are effective in dealing with these challenges?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
so the biggest one is un responsible for fixing or rebuilding websites. Um, there are roughly 1.8 billion websites in the world today. Millions of people own domains they don't do anything with. But then there's a lot of domains that do stuff with, and they will build those domains out on DSO. The biggest thing is making sure the architectures right, making sure that the site is fast. Nobody likes toe click on the Link and Google and go to a site that takes forever to load. It doesn't matter what country you're in. It could be India or Pakistan or Nigeria or the US It doesn't matter where is long. As the site loads fast, if it loads slowly, you bounce back to Google and then you click on the next link on DSO. The biggest thing that I like to do is focus on Steve on then I like to make sure that the content is actually relative for the user. Is the content good? Doesn't satiate the needs of the user on doesn't help. Also, the silent user silent Israel Google Baht, making sure that the site actually is probable. Many times you'll see a site where it's just not probable. It's It's impossible to use for Google, but they can't crawl. They can't understand it grammars horrible things like that and trying to understand it. Now I am in no means a grammar expert. I misspell miss type and get grammar wrong all the time. That's why there's people out there who focus on those things. And I worked with those folks. I focused on making sure the site from a technical S E O strategy has actually effective. Making the U. R L is good. The H one title, the H one tags that when you click a link and you see that big big font on the page over the top, that's an H one tag. When you are searching in Google and you see all those links that you can click on there, that's the title tag, making sure that those air optimized that they actually work well for the users. Eso Those are the big things. There's just some of the big responsibilities. The biggest challenges is convincing companies who have hired me toe actually let me do my job because a lot of them think no joke, a lot of them think that they already have it on. Ah, lot of folks think of S e o like it's a dark part that it is, Uh, that is it's fake and you know, it's it's a joke when I've shown cos I said, Hey, you know, just give me Give me six months. Let me prove myself for six months on DSO they will and one company. I can't mention their name, but I can say that I increase double the revenue in 18 months or double the traffic in 18 months on, I increase the revenue by 104% in 18 months on DSO. You know, there's there's big things that you can do there. Then the strategies dealing with those challenges, I think, are reflective of just being able to say, Hey, let me take the stabat This Let me let me show you what we can dio and chipping off little tiny chunks that can have winds. So those low hanging fruit that you'll hear throughout your life is what people are always asking for and what are the big wins? One of the low hanging fruit and attempting to carve off those little things that can actually be successful really quickly. To show that you know what you're doing on that. People can trust you.

What things do you like about your job? Were there any pleasant surprises? Discuss weekly work hours.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
okay. I love about my job, like or love. So I would say for me, I love my job. My job is actually my hobby. Um, so it for me, it's not just a career. It's actually something that makes me get up and be excited for the day about, um, understanding if you like, play chess If you like to play, you know, games like that. Um, you know those air you know, it is trying to understand duels, mindset, their algorithm, trying to understand what the competitors are doing on then not trying to beat Google but trying to beat your competitors on dso. Those are the things I like to go about. The pleasant surprises is having amazing winds, having clients who are excited to talk to you having companies, you know, being in house it, you know, at times, and being able to work with companies that you know, really value your opinion and want you toe have success because they know that if you have a little success that can make the company $100 million. Andi that brings in more people on. There's There's something I've always said is that if the CEO of a company screws up. What's the worst thing that happens? They get fired. What's the worst thing that happens if the CEO team screws up? Everyone gets fired. So S E. O is a very important thing on DSO those air, the pleasant surprises that people have to put a lot of trust in you. The weekly work hours. So it varies. Some weeks I'll put in 80 hours. In other weeks, I put in 10 so it really just depends on what is needed at the time. You know, there's times where I'm headed to the beach and worked at the beach all day long. There's other times where I've said I've got a pound it out, get some reports done. I've got a keyword analysis report that I'm working on right now, Um, combining with analytics, combining with all kinds of revenue data and trying toe show all of that valid validation in there. So it really comes down toe what is needed at the right time.

Can you walk us through your first few weeks, especially challenges, when you started working as a consultant? How did things change over the next few months?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
so done consulting on and off for my entire career. Azaz Well, has been in in house. Uh, see oas. Well, um, you know, I've I've never had a problem. I've always had success Aziz being a consultant. Um, I know other consultants who struggle and have a really difficult time. Um, I'm lucky enough that I've been able to cultivate a good client group of clients also, that you know, they people understand that I testify in court cases that I'm literally a certified expert. There's very few SCL experts in the United States on DSO. Um, people respect that people haven't understanding of it. It takes time, um, to get that authority. So the biggest thing on challenges, I would say for most CEOs is building up that authority. I know people have been doing S C o for a decade, and they still don't have any authority in the industry. But I also know s CEOs who've been doing publishing, and they're doing all kinds of things of self promotion on they've done a great job of it on. They've been able thio get themselves out there on DSO as faras working as a consultant. You know, I would say the hard part is is almost the hustle. It's trying to make sure that you're successful on. Then how do they change over the next few months or even years? Um, I wouldn't just say months. I would say definitely for the years Is cultivating and being able to help clients understand the value of things, helping them understand what you're doing right now? Unfortunately, due to Covic, people can't s CEOs can't go speak of conferences, so it makes it extremely difficult on DSO money have switched the webinars and doing trainings and things like that. So it is quite unique not being able to go to conferences anymore. And so I would say, is how things were changing over the few months, two years, and now Cove it and all that stuff it, Zaveri unique. It's a very difficult time right now for a lot of a lot of folks, but I found it to be very enjoyable. I think more people need s CEO right now more than anybody

What tools (software programs, frameworks, models, algorithms, languages) do you use at work? Do you prefer certain tools or services more than the others? Why?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
Okay, So from s CEOs to a point I use first and foremost I use Google Analytics. Or I'll use Adobe Analytics either one of those two. I like on Dennis frameworks. Um, really, Doesn't matter what what coding language you use. The biggest thing is the HTML output has an S e o. You should be able to read HTML code and understand it. Um, the algorithm, You're never going to really understand Google's algorithm. You could build your own for doing internal things and stuff like that. Um, languages. Um, html is all in a in English except for the body content or sometimes the head. So I've worked on sites that are based in Pakistan and India and on, you know, it could be in Hindi. It could be in Chinese. It could be in French, could be in German. Whatever language. It doesn't really matter. Um, for me, languages don't matter. Uh, the software programs go to that a little bit more, So there's a few big tools that are out there first and foremost. I love absolutely love screaming frog. It's a tool invented by Dan Sharp out of the UK, it's used for crawling your own internal website, but you can also use it to crawl competitors websites as well to understand what they're doing. So there's some really fundamentally amazing things that you can get out of that I use that tool of daily um, and so screaming for August. Fantastic A traps. Another fantastic tool used for, uh, keyword analysis, things like that on then. ECM rush. That's another tool, just like a trap. So they're very similar to each other. Uh, slightly different, but very similar. They both look at keywords and things like that on Ben. Yeah, Excel. I used excel all the time because you're exporting thousands of rose, you know, and thousands of columns of data on your trying to correlate stuff. I did a report this morning where I had to pull, uh, 200,000 rows of data spread across like, like, 60 columns. So and I have to be able to find the nugget in there that's gonna make that site succeed. So being ableto understand data to read data, spreadsheets, a giant screen, I'm looking at a right now, my screen that I'm looking at you on is a 32 inch monitor and I've got two more 32 inch monitor sitting right beside it on. The reason for that is because you get eye strain on. So I would say that's a That's a tool that you definitely need to have on. Do I prefer any certain tools and services more than others? No. All of them do their job. I think all of them work on. Yeah, I'll use anything and everything I can to be successful. One of my biggest favorite ones, though, is Jura. If you don't use Jura, check it out. It's fantastic. It's used for project management software. It helps you say, Hey, I want to do X piece of work on. Then the engineers can pick up that piece of work and break it down. They can accomplish that work that way. You're not going back and forth and email and things get lost and never use Google docks and working with engineers always use a project management software platform. Jared from Elation Jared Confluence Work fantastic. Yes,

What are the profiles of your clients? What kind of projects do you handle? What skills are needed in these projects?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
cool. So let me answer the second question. So what kind of projects do I handle? And I'm gonna flip Flip that around. What don't I handle? I don't work on anything banking. I don't work on anything drug related. And I don't work on anything with porn. Uh, eso those air three I don't work on. So I work on any kind of other project. So any other kind of website? Everything from swim clothing Thio, women's shoes, two gas stations, Thio Kid's toys. I'll work on all those, um, on dso and anything else you could possibly think of. I'll work on, uh, the profile of the client. Um, wildly different from anything from startups. Thio, Fortune 500 fortune fifties, actually. So anything you can imagine? I'll touch it. I'll work on it. That's outside of those three that I won't work on on. Then what skills are needed? Those projects you have to be able thio written. You have to be able to make sure that you are written. Communication is on point. Uh, most people don't have time for video calls. They don't have time for phone calls. They want to read what they want to read, and they want it to be extremely fast. So because of that, when I like to focus on is making sure that my written communication is on point. I wanna make sure that it's very short. It's concise, it's got pictures. If it needs Thio, I don't want to send over its most of my contracts these days. I actually tell the client I will not send you a written report. I will send you monthly tracking Andi things like that. But I will not do anything else on DSO. They know that and it's very limited on, um I try to make sure that I'm not wasting CEOs or CMOs or VPs times short time tryingto help them understand or teach them. That s E O. If they wanna be talking about S e O, I'll gladly teach them. But most of time they don't have the time

How do you reach out to potential clients? What are the roles of people you reach out to? What are their typical concerns and how do you address them?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
Yeah. So potential clients come from referrals from other current clients? Um, I don't I don't really do reach out anymore. I mostly wait for people to call me. My credibility is solid enough now in the industry, Um, lead generation is not something I've ever enjoyed. Um, trying to get people to say, Hey, I want to send us a sign with me because I'm amazing. Well, there's a million other people who are saying the exact same thing on DSO. I like to differentiate myself. I also, uh, for potential clients if if if you were somebody who said, Hey, I know S e o. Or are somebody contacted you and said, Hey, you know, I need to hire somebody who's an S e o. I say, hey, or that that person would say, Hey, I contact Mount Storms and they would refer me over to them. Usually, what I do is I do a 10% referral fee Finder's fee as well on that goes back to the to the person at the end of the contract for the first year. So I have a lot of folks who have made a lot of money on doing absolutely nothing but referring them to me, their friends to me. And so that's something that that does well to the roles of the people who reach out. To me, that's no joke. It comes from the CEO of CMO VP of something all the way down to an S e o director. Sometimes we'll reach out to me on their typical concerns. Are are traffics tanking or are traffics not doing well enough? Or we want to crush our new competitors or we want to just do better. So usually those are the four things on going along those lights.

What are the roles of client's employees you routinely work with? What are the challenges in working with them? What approaches help to overcome challenges?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
Yeah. So the role of the client one. I'll give one example Right now. One roll client apparently worked with he's the CEO of this company is currently making about $80 million a year. Hey, employees, roughly about 60 people in the US, China, India and in London. So I z making a good bit of money on the biggest challenge. Working with him is helping him understand the value of what we're doing. Onda. That took a probably about four months, and he finally started to realize it. He was the one who reached out to me. Um, nobody else did. He reached out to me and said, I wanna hire you. And then after about two months, he said, What what are we doing on? I showed him all the different things that we were changing and fixing on. I said, Just SC was like fishing. You know, it takes time. It's not overnight. You can't just throw your your your hook in the water and pull it out and expect to get a fish. What you have to expect is that it's gonna take you between 4 to 8 months to get a result. Well, we started getting results at month three on DSO because the site wasn't that great to begin with, they started to make some pretty substantial changes and so there was some serious Wednesday. The biggest challenge, though, is getting him to understand the winds on. Then the approach toe overcome those challenges was going back to what I said earlier. It was it was you hired me. Let me show you what I can dio give me everything that I'm asking more and I will I will fix this on DSO Those things all combined together made him very successful, I'm expecting probably within another two months. I've been working with him now for seven months since February on dso Um he's already had some very great successes in Europe now and increasing his his website traffic. We've increased website traffic by about 40% over what it used to be on. His revenue has increased about $20 million off the channel. So um, that's not too bad. It's pretty good money

Can you discuss career accomplishment(s) that you feel good about? Please discuss the problem context, your solution, and the impact you made.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
it was a good question. So e worked at a large trauma company on that travel company Was not doing too well when I got there. When I left there, I had increased the revenue from roughly about 35 million, almost 200 million in revenue. And in just the S e o channel on that was a huge win. Um, the problem context was that s e o just really wasn't good. It was bad, and they really hadn't put any eye towards it. They were doing other things, like working about affiliates, working towards other channels and things like that. And the code was old. It was very legacy is very boggy and very slow down on dso we completely fixed it completely rewrote it on. That took a lot of time. It took almost a year and a half. But when we did it, it made a massive impact to the to the company. And we also launched it into 36 international points of sale is well, so that was huge, Andi, Anybody can anybody can do S e o. I mean, it's not like you have to go to school for it, because really There's not really many places teaching it. And so I focused on building out really great content, focused on making sure going back toe page speed and making the RLS on H one and images and all that stuff on making sure all that worked. So I think that's the impact that is, that we made it easy for the user and for the search engine.

How has the demand for certain skills and technologies changed in your field? What kind of consultancy work or jobs would see big growth in the upcoming years?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
All right. So the demand for certain skills, um, in the S e o space, uh, technical s CEO has has only increased, um, every website needs S e o. Doesn't matter if you're a tiny little mom and pop restaurant all the way. Thio apple. Uh, you know, Fortune 10 Company number one or number two company. I think in the world. Right now, they everybody needs s CEO. Everybody does. Apple has a big CEO team on restaurants. Need s C 02 So that way they can show up in Google. Um, you know, think of the last time you search for a restaurant. Uh, you pull out your phone, you search restaurants near me or restaurants and you get the maps, location, restaurants, show up near you, and then you sort and you look at them by their pictures and pictures of the food. How many reviews they have the right up of the restaurant that the owner wrote. And then you're going to scroll through some of the reviews as well on dso all those things that all comes down Tosto as well. So for me, the technologies, um I don't know the technology really hasn't changed much like the using tools and things like that. That hasn't changed much in the last few years. The biggest thing is is looking at you. Can you can use excel. Can you write? Well, can you articulate what you need, Thio A CEO or a VP to help them understand what you're attempting toe Want to dio also, can you explain those things to an engineering team of what you wanna do in written form? Injera on? Then you're going to go through that? Um where do I want to see the ones growing in the in the upcoming years? I do csco growing You have heard or read in the last decade, The S E O is dead. If somebody comes out about some Paul Attner, what do you call it? Some big big time S e o will come out every year and they'll just say, Oh, s e o is dead. Ah, lot of times they do that for Clickbait on. They know that they get people to click on their website and they could make a few more dollars. Respect that. But that post has been regurgitated over the last 15 years. It seems like so Not really needed to be sad. I think SDO is actually very strong. Andi, I think there'll be a lot of growth on the technical side where I think they'll be even more growth more than S E O. Is data science. Uh, they're still trying to figure that out. People with PhDs out of M I t are still trying to figure data science out, so that one is still a brand new type of environment on I don't think that will be really in full grasp for another 10 or maybe 15 years, but I think that's when that could have a big growth.

What responsibilities and decisions did you handle at work? What were the challenges? What strategies were effective in dealing with these challenges?

Based on experience at: Search Product Expert - Volunteer, Google
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
So I was a Yeah, I was a volunteer Google, I I answered questions. People would go into the Google forms and answered questions on DSO or ask questions. And then I was the guy who would sit there in my spare time before I had kids. I don't haven't done this now for about two years, but on a kind of quit doing it all together. But when I was doing it, I would focus on finding the answers, the questions now, finally finding the answers to the questions that people were asking. Ah, lot of times people are lazy. I don't blame them for that. But they don't bother to go on research and find the answer. They just want the answer to be given to them. And so because of that, I focused on trying to help them. And a lot of times the answer had already been given 5 to 10 times on DSO. Rarely did I have a question where the answer was never knew what I had to go research it. So a lot of the times, though, is it opened up a lot of doors, but as faras the responsibilities, there wasn't really any there except for just making sure I gave good answers, the challenges for people who would get angry because they didn't agree with the free answer that I gave them on Ben. The strategies that was effective with those folks was just answering, answering the questions and trying to be very helpful. Ah, lot of people came there and would answer would ask questions and their website traffic was down. Sometimes it could be down 60% so they're losing millions of dollars or even hundreds of dollars. But if that's your livelihood, that's that. That's that any any revenue loss can hurt on DSO. That was one of the big thing there is trying to help those folks who are didn't know what they were doing.

How does the school prepare you for your career? Think about faculty, resources, alumni, exposure & networking. What were the best parts in each of your college programs?

Based on experience at: Master of Business Administration (MBA) Candidate, Marketing, Colorado State University
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
Yeah. So I would say the MBA did not help me at all. It was actually a revenue loss on I would not do it again. One of the best things that that I realized in there, though, was how to understand the p and l how to do cost benefit analysis. Um, those were the few things that I did take out of it. The rest of it, though I didn't want it, um, that I didn't already know already. Hadn't learned by watching YouTube videos and figuring stuff out. So for me, there wasn't much the faculty. Lincoln is great for understanding alumni exposure networking. I think Lincoln is a better networking platform than understanding schools. If this was, you know, 1990 or previous to that, I would say that, you know, maybe even 2000. 2000? Yeah, MBA is helpful. But prior to 2000 or after 2000, I mean, you've got so many networking things that you can utilizeI would say just learning how toe understand the financials and things like that. That was the best part. You can't go wrong when you know where the money is going.

What three life lessons have you learned over your career? Please discuss the stories behind these lessons, if possible. Stories could be yours or observed.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
so three life lessons. Okay, so I could give, um one. I'll try to make it short. Um, there was an air traffic controller in the U S. Navy. A pilot was having a mechanical issue on. He was coming in for a landing on a runway on, and he had an issue with his flaps on his plane. When he decided to attempt to make that landing, um, he put his gear down, he flipped the plane over. He ended up a jacking. He went into the ground of the high velocity speed and he did die. And well, unfortunate as that is, is that if he would have continued, he most likely would have killed one or two other people. A swell, because I had planes taking off and landing at the same time as he was trying to come in for an intersecting runway. So two runways facing different directions. He was trying to land on one, and I had plans going on the other one s so he could have He could have killed a lot of people and done a lot of damage. And so while it's sad, that was ah, hard lesson for me to learn is that, you know, sometimes you know it's not your time in life on the reason for that is, you know, if it waas uh, you know, if he would have come in the land, that he could have killed people, Another one would be that when I was a trip advisor 31 of the life lessons there was that great engineers, if you treat them right, do great things for you. And so that was a fantastic lesson for me as well. On DWhite, they did is I asked engineers to do stuff there and I had one of them. I found out he had worked the whole weekend. Andi, I said Well, and I contacted him on Monday and I said, Why did you work the whole weekend? He's like, Well, you said you really wanted to get this done on I said, Well, I understand that, But why did you work that he's because you've always gone to bat for us. You've always done everything possible to make us successful as a team. So I wanted to repay that favor for you. So I thought that was pretty interesting on then. The last one I would just say is good communication. It's making sure that you can actually communicate with the people on your team and the people on other teams, because if your stakeholders air invested in what you're doing, then everybody will become invested in what you're doing and they want you to be successful.

What starting job (after internship) would you recommend to students who hope to grow professionally like you? What other parting advice, dos, and don'ts would you give?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
job after internship. Well, I would recommend, actually, if you want to go into CEO, you do sus an internship. If you If you don't want Thio, go into SQL. I don't I'm not sure if I could really help you, but after your internship, I would look at either going in house or looking at an agency. Andi. Now there's a difference between the two of them. Um, if you go to an agency, you're going to see a lot of different websites. You're also gonna move up the ranks really fast and you're going to give given a title that might not equal your level of education. As far as doing Seo Andi, that could set you up for failure down the road. If you go in house, you'll be looking at one website, maybe three, maybe four, depending on how maney that company owns. Be looking at that those websites and then you on Lee be working on those so you won't see lots and lots of problems. So what I'd recommend is going for a year, maybe two years at an agency, then going in house for a year or two years and then bouncing back and forth about every 22 years, maximum 1 to 2 years. If you look at my LinkedIn profile, you see that I bounced around a lot. And the reason for that is because I wanted to see lots and lots of different websites and all the issues that were associating with all mall. So I really wanted to focus on that. So that would be something I would think about agencies Great in house is great, but I would strongly suggest that you do both. So that way you get a strong sense of learning. And don't stay there more than two or three years unless you're getting a lot of stock on a lot of money. Don't do it on If you want to grow professionally, participate in forms, participate in places that you know our communities and start asking questions and answering questions. Andi, those were some of the big parting advice is that you participate that you're not just treating, you know, if you want to treat sdo like a job, you're only going to be a successful as that job I know s CEOs who barely make $50,000 a year. I know other s CEOs who are making a half a million dollars a year on the difference is, Is that people who treat it like a job or the people who treat it like it's everything. So think of it like that. And then you're gonna be looking at on the other party advice and use and balance. Uh, it's communication. It's about being able to communicate. If you can't communicate, you're only going to be a successful is the last site you worked on.

What responsibilities and decisions does one handle in a job like yours? What are the challenges? What strategies are effective in dealing with these challenges?

Based on experience at: Senior SEO Manager - Viator.com, Tripadvisor
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue Sep 15 2020
Yeah. So the biggest thing there, it's going to go back to communication. Um, you know, it's gonna go back. Thio trying to help folks understand what we were trying to dio. That was the biggest challenge on the strategies with that was just getting people on board, um, talking to all the different stakeholders, getting them to understand, get on board and to go with what we were attempting to dio.