INSEAD Executive Education, Digital Transformation
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How did you get to where you are today? What incidents and experiences shaped your career path? What inspired you to start your training institute?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
right. Well, thank you for having me to real pleasure. Looking forward to help as many students assed possible eso Where did I Why did why did I start white? Traditionally, I would say, uh, education in computer science blended with economics. So I started really, as a developer myself, back in France on then My third job, waas with Microsoft on it was back in 1998. So if you remember, if maybe you're old enough, you will know that that was the first Internet boom at the time on we experienced as well the first Internet crunch at the time. Eso Throughout those years, I evolved from being a developer to looking into partner trips and business development at Microsoft on when I left Microsoft, uh, kind of four years ago, 34 years ago. Now I was actually in charge off learning on online, learning at at Microsoft and really helping anyone in the world learn Microsoft Technologies online. And that's very much what has reshaped my career. And that's also what really inspired me to stop new can because, as I mentioned, I was really looking after purely online learning at the time on knowing the pitfalls off online learning, especially how difficult it waas for students to stay motivated and to complete their learning journey. There are numbers out there that says that only 3% off online learners actually complete what they intended to do. On then, on the other side of the spectrum, you had very traditional schools, campuses, buildings, full time professors, very expensive schools that were asking students to quit their jobs in order to learn to code. And so that's how New Game came about. It's really trying to find a middle ground that will still be inspired by the flexibility, the affordability of online, but bring the level of commitment and rigor that more traditional education will provide.

What training programs and courses do you offer? How much time is spent on in-person and online classes in a week? How many weeks do students typically take to complete?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
Yeah, that's a great question. So Ah, boot camp are really focused on Web development, and so for that we are really laser focused on JavaScript. As you can imagine, it's the number one development Web development language out there. We have three distinct programs. Boot camps. The very first one is a four week introduction boot camp that talks about HTML, CSS and JavaScript. It's really to get your hands dirty. I would say Check if really learning to code is something that you will like that something that is for you the real, I would say, the rial boot camp that really prepares you for career eyes 22 weeks long. And during that time you're going to spend the majority off your learning experience online during the week from, uh, Sunday to stoop. Friday, we say, but on Saturday you will have a four hour in person walk shop with your local and structure and your local local classmates. Now I say that that waas we covet 19 with Corbyn 19. We had to move that in person experience online, but we're planning to bring it back in multiple cities across the US in person. Whenever you know the copy threat is gone on, so that's ah total. If you want to do from beginning to end, that's a total off 26 weeks of learning, and we asked students to be ready to spend spend anywhere between 20 to 40 hours are given week to them.

What process do you follow for creating and updating courses? How do you ensure the relevance of topics and material covered?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
Yeah, so we created. Actually, we re created our courses back in September. We had a pretty established curriculum already, but what really helps us to refine it and improve it is two things primarily the very first one is we ask for feedback from our students on a weekly basis on some weekly basis. We asked students to give us feedback on the instructor the quality of the instructor, but also the quality of the curriculum itself on that very often allows us to ADM or exercises. So one field that we got waas we really want more ends on exercises on that particular week or that area is not covered enough. We want to understand it more. And so we will create either additional videos, additional exercises and things like that. The second really input for curriculum are instructors themselves on. We actually have a really strong and structure community, and we actually implemented off course development process in get huh? So you can actually create a bag, you can create a feature. So our courses are really like, uh, projects on get hub where instructors actually get to, you know, request additional features off. Ask us to find to fix a bird. The typo that we have on our curriculum on lastly, So they're not really the two elements that we have to always a perfect or existing curriculum. And then, of course, we're looking at what's going on in the industry. So we want, for example, toe add a python curriculum, tow our boot camps on to really make sure that we also offer that level of knowledge to students. And that's really by, you know, being expert in the industry, looking at what's happening out there on and finding the topics that are the most relevance, the most relevant for students.

What criteria do you use to admit students and what are the various student profiles in your programs? What kind of career growth and jobs could students get afterward?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
Yeah, that's a great question. So we are to be very different from other traditional coding boot camps in how we admit students. Our philosophy is recognizes that we are dealing with adults who can make their own decisions as long as they are well informed. And so we don't want to refuse access to anyone, right? Well, actually want to inform our prospective students what would be required for them to join and ask them to make sure that they have done the prerequisite IDs. So, uh to, for example, registered for four weeks boot camp. We ask students to check that they have what we call computer literacy so that they actually know how to use a computer, beat a Mac, a PC or even the line X computer. But they need to be literate in, you know, you know, using the mouse using navigating folders, using a little bit off the comment, prompt on the bash, things like that, uh, and then they can register online just, you know, using that credit card and registering. And they're in. We have we don't have admission blockers or admission walls per se for the longer boot camps. We asked them to pass a test and to score a minimum of 85%. But again, we're going to really trust that they've done that and trust that they've actually, uh, with the necessary skills to join our program on. If they do, they can the same way register like life. There's no admission blockers there, either, A. Z long as they are willing to pay the first month there in. And so that gives us really, uh, for your other question, one of the different student profiles. We really have a wide range of profiles. We have people who likely 50% off the students who joined us. Join us. I've tried to learn on their own on nine before, right, so they got their feet wet. They realize that something they want to learn. But they also discovered, you know, the pitfalls that we talked about earlier in terms off. It's really hard to stay committed online, and so they come to us with a good over overview off what what it's about and are starting either in the four weeks boot camp or directly you no longer food stock boot camp. We have people who have never coded off their in their lives on their starting with us with the four weeks boot camp. And we tell them after the four weeks, you know, you know, if you like it, you know, if you're good at it, you know, if you want to stay committed and try the next phase, uh, and so on, we also have people who have been putting on. Of course, we have less off them. But we have people who have been coding, like 15 years ago, 20 years ago, who start who did something else a little bit like me actually on and just want to get back to it. Uh, so we have people who are UX designers Well, ICTY but not coding and want to supplement that. I don't know that. So we carried growth and jobs that couldn't get afterwards. Well, we want to be free, honest and transparent with them. Uh, it's a little bit of a difference with what you may hear in the industry as well here. We don't want students to believe that after the boot camp, they can pretend to get a job at Microsoft or Google or Facebook or Amazon. We really want to make sure that they set the right expectations as to what they can accomplish right after the boot camp. And that's going to be a junior Web developer position. And many actually are stunning freelance because they were able to keep their job. They're gonna start actually to try their skills out as a freelance on the side. They're gonna help the local star. They're gonna help local businesses who need, you know, a new website on. Then we're going to start to do interviews. We're gonna, you know, be hired not by the, you know, software engineering companies. But, you know, the brick and mortar companies. Any company those days eyes a digital company and need help in web development, including, and so we are gonna help them to actually get to the US Those three of jobs on, then, after a few years, 34 years. Yes. After that, they can actually try their chance. And I applied to a job at Microsoft, Google, Facebook and the likes, but we're very clear with them. Don't spin. Your whales don't really lose your your energy and your passion trying to get into those big companies first, because chances are it's gonna be very challenging

How do you enable collaboration, social interaction, and comradery among students? Do you use any software, host online or offline events, or follow any processes for this?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
Yeah, it's a great question again. It was very important to me when we designed the learning experience given. I mean, I spent seven years at Microsoft, actually, more 7 to 10 years thinking about learning and what it means. And what I know is, even though you learn online and it's at scale and you have so many people, you have to have a social construct. You have to feel part of a group. And so, even though we have thousands of students learning at one at one point in time, all those students are grouped in classrooms off maximum 12 students, and it's ah, it's a social construct that we're gonna keep for the 20 length of the good camps 22 weeks, for example. And each group of 12 students has one dedicated instructor. So imagine you know, huge amount off people learning but still in there. Um uh, in the group of 12 students working together, getting to know one another, you know, knowing the names, knowing the faces when we were in person, where we're actually meeting in person, forming that, you know, social connection that you can establish Uh, and so a lot of face to face is what really creates the connection, the social glue between the students and the instructor and with covet. We've actually brought that online. Using zoom on Saturdays, I mentioned that we have for our live workshops, so that's were using Zoom at that time, but it's still the same. It's 12 students, one instructor, and we have thousands of pods like that happening at the same time.Yeah. Now your great. Yeah. So we have two million software. I would say we have a learning management system where students come together, you know, find the cause material can message them, can do the exercises. And here as well. In the learning management system, they see themselves with a group of 12 and the instructor. But then we have slack. We use slack for, you know, any other type of conversation. And this is where those parts off 12 students are gonna be ableto talk among themselves, but then talk to the other thousands of students that are doing exactly the same thing at the same time. And so you're gonna see a much broader collaboration happening there.

How do you support your students for internships or jobs? How do you prepare them for job interviews? How do you provide networking and mentoring opportunities?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
right, So we offer and we've actually recently developed that new service. We offer carrier services and parent coaching, and we also offer enough developed what we call an exclusive job board. So let me actually go through those one by one. We have a six week career development program right now that comes at the end off the boot gap. So it's post graduation, and those six weeks program are really focused on helping you build your resume. Maintain your heater profile. We also emphasized the importance off networking in your community. Uh, in addition to, you know, applying online. We find that networking locally with local leaders local, the local business community oftentimes actually leads to a job more often than just supplying, you know, blindly toe opportunities online. Um, the area coaching is at the end of off your boot camp. Once you graduate, you are assigned a coach, and that coach typically is one of our instructor on. You're gonna be able to schedule the coach for 30 minutes conversations, review your resume to review your guitar profile, uh, to prep for a job interview. If you have one lined up and things like that and then finally, the job board. It's actually us reaching out to companies, mostly small companies, everywhere where we actually have boot camps and asking the HR department or the I T department. Hey, are you interested in hiring a new camp boot camp graduate? And if they do, where they have a form to post their job opportunity on our board? Now, of course, we have way less opportunities on that board than what you will find, you know, on on, linked in Or indeed. But what's great about those opportunities is they're very qualified, like we know those are. Companies are actually actively seeking graduates and actually open toe by a junior Web developer on DSO. Whenever we get one of those, we have graduates applying, and we have one graduate who actually gets the job so really high chance of getting a job off course. Not as many, but but when we have, it's a It's a great outcome for the Graduate

How do you assist students in paying for your program? What kind of scholarships and financial aid are available for students and how can they avail those?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
Yeah. So the very first way that we have to assist students for paying for the tuition is actually offering the most affordable tuition in the industry. Uh, it really goes back to how we thought about the business model of New Camp Onda. How we thought about, you know, removing all the extract costs off operating a school on DSO. I won't go into the details of the business model. Maybe we'll talk about that later, but the outcome is, or 22 weeks. Boot camp is only $1765 so that's the 10th. Almost off. What other coding boot camp will will pay will charge you. So obviously, it's a great way to assist students just by making that much affordable. Then we are also offering a free payment plan so you don't have to pay the full 1700 at once. You actually pay in five times no interest eso Europe a chance off $353 for example. We have scholarships. We have scholarships for initiative. That's called risk in America, where area karma is offering laptops and we'll offer one month off scholarship. We have scholarships for high school students who are wondering, What am I gonna do next? You know, within the coffee that my willing to go to college online or what? I just, you know, take a six month sabbatical and learn to code we actually go toe announced tomorrow on today's actually, November 10th. So made. So on the 11th, we're gonna announce a new scholarship for veterans. Eso we'll have that as well. Uh, and without spoiling it, we will also announce very soon new, uh, mission payment plans that are gonna be extremely advantageous as well. Where we're actually going to be able to reduce the monthly cost too. You know the cost off, You know, you Netflix subscription, for example. Eso Yeah, we're gonna be able to announce that in more details in a few weeks.

What marketing software and channels do you use to find and engage prospective students? Which are less effective? Which one do you recommend to students to learn?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
Yeah. So we are clearly a B two c company business to consumer spread directly, consumer. So our main channels are the main two channels that you find out there, and that's Facebook and Google. Uh, Facebook ads and Google ads are really our main to channel where we invest the most. We've tried other niche channel like we've tried and a channel that will just that will allow it to allow us to reach out to all the uber drivers and lyft drivers, for example. It's interesting. The challenge with that is he never gets to the scale off what Google and Facebook can hope for. And you also, though, that you're gonna reach that uber and lyft driver through those two main channels. Uh, we've tried additional ones like, um oh, I'm going to draw a black. Let me check again on my phone stare. We tried that. What's up? What's the other one? Not Twitter, the one that the kids are using? Snapshot. We've tried snapshot on because we wanted to reach to the high school audience and and those channels follow Earth are a little bit more challenging, toe apprehend. I mean, it's actually quite it's easier for us to reach out to a gnawed Ian starts like 30 to 5, 50 years old, using Google and Facebook. Um, you know, the younger generation is harder to reach. I would say so. We've tried the snapshot, but without that much success, Uh, so, yeah. I mean, if you look thinking about, you know, digital marketing and B to C right now, it's very, very hard to go. Go out off your way on. Find better. Better alternatives than you know, what Google and Facebook are we've No, we actually are doing straight management in what Facebook and Google are. Offerings of Google, AdWords and Facebook ads manager. We do program those ourselves s Oh, there's a few ways that you can really automate the management of those campaigns, but we haven't really used external tools to manage them.

How has the demand for certain skills and technologies changed? What kind of jobs would see big growth in the upcoming years?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
there's the There's bean eso. The market has been softening a little discovered clearly, but it's still very strong, and you still find a ton off open openings that are that are available. There's also more demand or more openness, I will say, from hiring managers to hire someone who's gonna be remote. However, it's harder if you're just a junior Web developer to get a fully remote position. At first, we're still, you know, in the mind off. Many are in manager. There's still more openness to high remote, so you could. I was a transition more easily into remote position after 23 years of experience. Um, well development and the technology is supporting. Web development is still at the top of the list. If you look at actually the number one programming language out there still JavaScript before Python before Java on DSO. That technology is very much, uh, in huge demand. Also because that's a that's a language and technology that's very versatile, so you can program the well, but you can also, with reacting 80 for example, you can build the mobile app, and with no jealous, you can build the back end server with the same programming language so that covers such a range off needs, uh, that it's actually quite easy to understand why it's such a such a high demand. And then, of course, you have things that are growing every year and kind off in the typeface off, you know, ai machine learning robotics. Uh, data science thes domains continue to grow. Uh, but I will say when you think of it from a coding boot camps standpoint and what we're trying to accomplish these are searching the domains that are way harder to get into. If you don't have a computer science degree, right, you can't really It's hard to. I mean, you have to have a good level of math. You have to have a good level off, you know, algorithms started sickle background, if you wanna do it. That a science and machine learning eso. These are domains that typically it cutting boot camps are not investing too much into, probably because it doesn't really address or it's not really something that are targeted audience. We'll have my chances in getting into, but obviously that's still something that that that's growing

What were the major exciting and memorable moments? Were there also any moments that almost got you to quit? How did you get past them?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
exciting moment. Waas. When I realized that we had what we call product fit or market fit on. And if students need a definition, is it's when you have a good feedback from the market that the product you've built is something that people want to buy. All right, you thought about it, you've tested it. But then you put a price tag on it, and especially in the B two c in space, you know very quickly if people are willing to buy it. And so that was three years ago when I advertised my website a time we were charging $160 for the full week boot camp and out of 12 seats possible. I got eight people to register and pay completely Unknown company. That was new camp at the time. $160 have wrong to do that on. That was like, Okay, there's something here that's that's people are willing to pay for it really money on. So it was very exciting to see that on, but was in Tacoma, Washington. Uh, like 3.5 years ago, I would say four years and most there were other moments when students really appreciated how much focus we had on quality and affordability and actually starting started to tell us about what it meant for them in terms of social mission, and so that that that brand that notion of social mission and what you're trying to accomplish for the greater good that I would say, actually came straight from students telling us I really love what you do. I really love all you're trying to do it and we love the quality that you keep while doing it. So that was another memorable moment, something that got me almost to quit. WAAS realizing because of our choice to make ah, but can so affordable What's to realize how many, how much scale we had to get to how many students we had to run role to actually create a sustainable business, right? Like we're not charging $15,000 for per student. So the amount of revenue, the amount off profit that we make pro student is pretty small. And so to make sense, from the just a pure business standpoint, we had to think big. We had to think about not just 10 cities in the US, but 101 180 cities in the US not just one students, but thousands of U students. And so we're starting to realize that, and starting to do the math and and looking at those numbers was like, almost feeling like how we are we gonna be able to do it. I mean, is it felt really too big too much to then have a meaningful business. Uh, on that was kind of two years ago, and we made it. It happened, um, way went past that and were pretty pleased with the growth that we've accomplished since Andi with the number of students we have, and especially the quality that we were able to keep.

Who were your competitors when you started and how did the competition evolve? How did you create a competitive advantage and a unique selling proposition?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
so computers were traditional coding boot camps, meaning and I will count to two types of traditional, according with camps. The brick and mortar coding boot camps who had a natural campus, full time professors locally in multiple cities. On we're charging 15 to $17,000 for a full time immersive experience. Now don't don't get me wrong. Those immersive experience are great if you can afford toe the full time and learn to quote 10 hours a day on site with the support off structures from Tactic. Um, we were really aiming to bring a differentiated offer for people who could not afford that who had to keep their jobs who had to do it part time on, then did not live nearby one of those campus. So that's one aspect off the traditional competition. I would say the younger competition waas coding boot camps that were fully 100% onlinethe second type of competitors where the pure online coding boot camps uh, we're charging not as much as the brick and mortar ones there were more were charging like 7 to $9000. So actually, we're charging 15 $30,000 for pure online experience. Beats me how people will actually won't pay that price for something that's purely online. But they were eso That's the landscape when we started and we were reading between off those two we had in person that competence on Saturdays, uh, in co working spaces and and, you know, small parts of 12 students. But we were also online the rest of the week on. We were closer to a pure online players from attrition standpoint than we were from the the brick and mortar wants eso. Our competitive advantage was unique formula. Unique boot camp experience online part time, but also a piece of in person. Small parts of 12 students, differentiated price, big time social mission, very much social all around. And how did the competition involved when I would say all different Shader was the business model and how we actually were able to do all that at that price point. And, as you may know, and as students may know, evolving a business model is the artist. It's the most difficult thing you can do on many companies. Actually, don't don't make it or don't even entertain it on. So we haven't seen big shifts in business models to adapt to what we have to work for. What we've seen, though, is our companies are putting boot camps being mawr inventive around. Our students pay their tuition, so they have really tried to address the affordability point first and foremost, not so much the experience on the scale on all that.

What responsibilities and decisions did you handle? What were the top three priorities and pain points? What strategies were effective in dealing with challenges?

Based on experience at: Senior Director Modern Credentialing, Microsoft
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
Yeah. So I'm Microsoft. I was looking after Mac Soft certifications on and the challenge at the time was to try to modernize myself certifications to make them even more relevant in the market. Uh, and so I learned Microsoft like, four years ago, and at the time it waas as I mentioned, I came also before looking after certification. I was really coming from an online learning background. And so the idea waas could we somehow tie? You're learning experience to getting the certification at the end. Right? So we at the time it waas how do we make online learning steak on and then really blend that certification that you will get typically, you know, in the certification center answering, you know, multiple choice questions. And how can we actually bring those two together? That was really the top priority and the pain point Waas really challenging ourselves to think our certifications still relevant in the industry and and the answer is yes. I mean, you you can see how much people actually still value certification, but but modernizing was was quite quite important for us

What college programs did you attend and what were their best parts? How did each of your college programs prepare you for your career?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
Yeah. So I back in the days, you know, it was probably computer science. And so I remember learning C and doing object oriented programming. And see, I was pretty fun. I remember I'm dealing with my first database was Progress sequel on the Sun Microsystems machine. That was the best part for me. I remember when I was when I got exposed to object oriented programming. It was a big ah ha moment for me. Something that really stayed with me for a long time. I really enjoyed as well, you know, um, designing databases. You know, the concepts off, how you build your tables, the relationship between those de normalizing a model for for example. I mean, all of that was was kind of exciting to me, but what was great also at the time Waas it was a special curriculum that really exposed us to computer science pretty deeply, but also taught, taught us, you know, principles off accounting and business model and economics. Um, and that's really what you want to do. If you're thinking about becoming an entrepreneur, it's really having all those dimensions in your mind. And I will add because you ask the question. You wanted to learn about digital marketing. You want to learn about you know, how you actually reach out to customers at your value proposition. So, uh oh, those three elements on, I would say the last one, the digital marketing one came only later. More on the job type of learning. But those those threes were really critical toe, actually, uh, for becoming an entrepreneur, I would say.

What three life lessons have you learned over your career? If any, please also discuss your experiences facing adversity, or trying something unusual.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
So one life lesson for me is a good idea. Stays a good idea until it's proven wrong. And so you should not back down when you think about an idea, until you've really pushed it to its extreme. And there's a ton of ways that you can test on idea. Um, but anyone that tells you otherwise on face value or without data or without really deep thought and tests, uh, I wouldn't say, should be the space because there's always benefit in grass being insights and actually inspiration from someone else's perspective. But I will really use that as insight and inspiration to further test and prove your idea versus taking any feedback that could be potentially negative on face value. Eso you can't, for example, it well, first, that it didn't start as new camp. The idea evolved, and it took a year. Get that, you know, market fit that I described on DSO. You have to be preserve Arent. You have to know what the test you have to know. Not not to over engineer your test. Uh, you know there's a minimum viable product. I mean, most people who know the meaning of that, but being able to truly implement a minimal, viable product his heart. Because oftentimes you wanna you wanna bring all the better than whistles to something before you know, uh, showing it to customers. But really knowing how to be minimalist, I will say it's key. Um, what I've learned as well is personally, I've done it too late in my career. I waas kind of an entrepreneur at Microsoft where I I actually was building businesses at Microsoft, but I never really believed in my own ability to get outside of that and really become, I would say, a real entrepreneur out there to create, you know, my own company. And I feel I should have done it earlier. I spend kind of 20 years at Microsoft. I could have left maybe after 10 on, try this. Uh, and it's actually better to do it. I will say before you're married. You have kids, right? Uh, so, your students probably the best time to actually try those things. Um, and the last one I would say with regard to this journey, it's not something you want toe do alone. Uh, I actually the idea was developed by myself for about a year and very quickly you realize how lonely you are and how much the lack off external perspective is gonna prevent you. I'm actually developing the best product, and you also feel very quickly that you need people to Yeah, bring that perspective, but you need to be able to share right. There's so many things that happening that are happening, especially when you're creating a new concept on your company on your product, so many things that you want to share s o many feelings that you really want to bring other people along with you. So it's not. It can't be, uh, you know, a single entrepreneur journey. It has to be a team's journey on. So I've been co founder. This is critical on. You don't have to have them to know them when you start. But at some point you're going to really feel the need to bring other people other people along and so best to plan ahead and, you know, socialized what you're doing and see if see if you could jail and connect with potentially. Another co founder down the line

What starting job (after internship) would you recommend to students who hope to grow professionally like you? What other parting advice, dos, and don'ts would you give?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Wed Nov 11 2020
um so Well, I would definitely say no. A little bit of coding those days, uh, going to create something. And if you want to be able to put your concept right on, do the MVPs. You're gonna need to be ableto to know a little bit off, according, otherwise, it's gonna be harder. It's gonna have to be a group effort. And as I said, it's great of a group effort, But at first you're gonna probably have an idea that you're gonna wanna push. And for a while, people are may not be interested in your ideas. So you're gonna have to be able to rely on yourself. Um so learn coding. Definitely. Uh, And then I would say, and I had a conversation recently. It could be easy at first to think about. Hey, I'm just gonna create something and forgetting that maybe that something may not appeal to anyone may not have a market may not be a product that people want to buy, but some students will be like if I if I create a company and we build a product that looks good, that seems to address that need not be good enough because we will have learned a lot and I would actually challenged that by saying no, you have to actually really go through the effort of thinking How will I make money? Is that really someone that will actually buy right in the first few years? As a student, you will say, Well, just gonna be something that's gonna be fun. If you force yourself to really think like an entrepreneur and we didn't think about Okay, well, that product be attractive enough or have enough value for someone toe pay hard money. And if you challenge yourself with that Materia, it's gonna forced to think differently and force you to actually think I would say the right way. Because even though you're just a student and maybe you haven't built a company or you haven't created a product, if your first experience is building something fun, you will have learned how to do something fun. But you will have not yet learned how to build something that people want. And so I will force any student to actually see if they can with challenge themselves and not something that actually people will buy. And that's the whole. But that's a whole different ball game. Wow,