Let's see, I I went to college and I had in college. I studied history when I was, uh, uh graduated from college. I thought I wanted to do one of two things, go into movies or go into advertising, so I couldn't decide. So I went to Europe and I camped around Europe, and I found myself taking pictures of posters and billboards, and I said, Oh, you're really interested in advertising. It's a sign. So I got I got a job working for an agency in California. Ah, I did that for two plus years, and I realized I was learning everything not to do in the business and not what to do. So Ah, everybody said you had to go to New York to get training. And so I went to J. Walter Thompson, which was known as the University of Advertising at that point. And so I, uh, I worked my way up agenda beauty. I went to another agency shy a day, um, learned a very different approach. Fast forward. A few years. One of the things that always bothered me about my job was that the traditional approach to ah to advertising of the agencies that I was working at and the fact that these boundaries between creative people and account people and I felt that those boundaries were just, ah missed opportunity for lots of people, particularly myself. So when Dentsu, a Japanese agency I was working with, said, Hey, we want to form a new group where you be interested I jumped at it. And that was the beginning of renegade ah, firm that I started with three Japanese gentlemen. Ah, fast board in 1998. Actually, in 2000 and eight, my bought, uh, Dentsu out because our largest client was going to be leaving and there was no relationship. So basically, I started over again in 2008 with a company that had been in business for more than 10 years. But we have to start again. And so I've been running renegade since on my own, since ah, 2000 and eight, and it's been a wild ride. So there were many incidences that have shaped my experience. Ah, there was the great ah, recession of 2000 and age. Ah, there was the moment when our largest client walked out the door that were 70% of our business. There was the moment where one of our clients couldn't pay us $500,000. All of these things happened in the same three month period. Uh, so Ah ah. I figured if we could make it through there, we could make it through just about any anywhere. Uh and, ah, you just wake up every morning and you you take care of your clients and then hope for the best.

um so I'm not sure I understand the question in that. First, I guess you could call Renegade a consultancy. But we are a marketing agency, a full service marketing agency, and we existed as a full service marketing agency. Really? Since 1994. So every five years, we've had to reinvent ourselves, but I've still been the head of the same company for a long time. I will think this. There are a few books that I read along the way that it really helped shape the way I think about small business. Wait, wait. I have Ah, renegades. Been very big. We've been very small. My favorite period is right now, we're small. And the reason for that is I like doing the work. Some people like to build businesses and sell them. I like doing the work. So that's why and the larger you get and if you run a company, the less you do the work. So that's a very personal choice. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, but for me, because I really enjoy the work being smaller as much

Let's start with framework. So one framework we use. There's a book called Traction that I highly recommend for small businesses. They have something called the Entrepreneurs Operating System. Um, and I've read a lot of books on business and how to run them. And this was the simplest and easiest one, um, for our company. Ah, and a lot of people that I've talked to so that CEO's and the book is called Traction than the entrepreneurs operating system. That's not software that is a framework. Ah, in terms of software programs, we it's really not what, really what defines us? We use what everybody else uses. Its not were not a We're not a development shop or anything like that. So I don't know if any of those air relevant. Um, the other thing, I would say, a book that's been profoundly influential is a book called David by it's called The Business of Expertise by David C. Baker. And what it really talks about is if you want to be a consultant and really then what expertise looks like and how do you get it and how do you frame it? And I think it's very helpful for anybody in a services business to to read and understand. Ah, uh, and it's a lot of work, but it's it's, ah, it makes it made tremendous sense to me and very healthy.