Box Chief Marketing Officer
Harvard University Business Analytics Program
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How did you get to where you are today? What is your story? What incidents and experiences shaped your career path?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
Yeah, so maybe start off a little bit. So I'm the CMO, Chief Marketing Officer at Box, a Silicon Valley company focused on cloud content management. And I've been with the company for about two years. I've been in my current role for roughly nine months, and it's a little bit of an interesting experience. And if you look at my background and career path, I have a bit of a philosophy of being a generalist. And so I've done a lot of different roles in my past, whether that's running a product organization, running marketing organization, running part of a sales organization or in what we call customer successes, like basically making customers successful with whatever product they bought. And so over the last 20 plus years, I've always had this sort of bent around marketing, and it's just where my passion is. And so I've either been working with marketers and sort of customer-facing roles or actually doing marketing on my own. And I think, what has shaped those experiences and I guess, behaving this philosophy of a bit more of a generalist as these opportunities have come up, and I have basically taken a little bit of leap of faith and taking on roles where maybe I didn't have the experience, but I was learning and trying to figure that out and sort of set me up for my career path of doing some pretty interesting fun stuff.

What are the responsibilities and decisions that you handle at work? Discuss weekly hours you spend in the office, for work travel, and working from home.

Based on experience at: Chief Marketing Officer, Box
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
What's interesting around the chief marketing officer role? It is a very broad role. And so if you think about what do I care about? I care about the brand and reputation of the company at a high level. I think about how do I help our sales team grow? So I think about what we call annual recurring revenue. So how do you actually get that the company to grow? And I partner very closely with our sales organization to build a pipeline and opportunities for new prospects. And then I also think about our existing customers, and are we setting them up for success? Are they understanding the capabilities of what they've purchased from us? Are they returning? Are they leaving the organization, like all of these, are things that are across the entire customer lifecycle, whether it's them understanding Box, what we do in our vision to making sure they from a consideration perspective, we are in their consideration set and then, ultimately, are they successful once they've purchased our software and they're renewing and buying more from us. That's you know, in a nutshell, the overall big, big picture. And then I've got a lot of different functions within the marketing organization. Think through that. So whether that is my PR communications team getting our CEO on TV and Newsweek or Business Week articles to actually thinking about what brand advertising we do in the marketplace? Whether that's digital or physical. I've got a team thinking about how do I execute our event strategies. How do we manage our website and our digital properties to a product marketing organization that really thinks about how do I position this? What's the market opportunity? How do I think through that? I've got an analyst relations organization that is working with vendors that, like a gardener or forester that really rates all the vendors and making sure they understand our value. I have a project management office that helps coordinate all of these things together. We've got a customer marketing organization that's thinking about how do I cross-sell it to the existing customer base. But also how do I make sure that they understand adoption and onboarding and making sure, really, they get value out of it. So it's a very broad work. And so today I'm actually working from home and so our office environment. I unfortunately work decent hours, but I do mostly go into the office. I probably work from 8- 5:30 or 6, is sort of my normal working hours. Although business today it seems like we often work later, more virtually with our phones. I do travel. I do travel quite a bit. Obviously have a global responsibility. So I have teams in London and Tokyo, in Sydney, in New York, So very distributed team. I do get the pleasure of traveling to some pretty cool places around the globe. 

What are the job titles of people you routinely work with inside and outside of your organization? What approaches do you find to be effective in working with them?

Based on experience at: Chief Marketing Officer, Box
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
So if you think about my peers within the organization, so we actually have a Chief Revenue Officer or really ahead of sales. He's really responsible for our growing sales up of the company and renewing the business week up. We have another chief customer officer and he thinks about what our customers are doing, are we giving them the right capabilities? Are we consulting with them? Do we have the right to work for them and making sure they're really seeing the value of what they've purchased So my boss is actually a chief operating officer, and she's responsible for all of those functions, making sure that we're all coordinated and working together. I work very closely with our chief product officer, and he's responsible for the strategy of the product that we build on making sure he's listening to customers and all that and then within those organizations I work closely with people in sales and customer success and product, are probably the ones that I probably worked the most with. And then from a customer perspective, I'm also working with my peers in the industry, talking about best practices and really, how they can use our solutions to help run their business. I say those are probably the ones most that I work with. And then there would be like titles of VP of sales VP, a customer success, director of sales, director of customer success, product managers, those are, probably the type of roles that a marketing leader probably works the most with. So I think for me the approach is making sure that I really understand what are their drivers? What are their KPIs? Their key performance indicators what it means is are they driving towards and how can I help support them? And then how can they support the things that I'm doing? So one of the things we think a lot about is around the transparency of making sure that whether that's Mark and one of the programs that he's got going on, how do I support him with my team and we're aligned on the same thing around, whether it's our head of product for our COO. It's transparently having a set of goals that are aligned and then making sure you're talking about it and working together, and I find that's the most effective way to get things done. 

What major challenges do you face in your job and how do you handle them? Can you discuss a few accomplishments?

Based on experience at: Chief Marketing Officer, Box
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
Yes. One's very timely. We are recording this. As you know, obviously the Coronavirus is happening. I'll give you a real-time example. We do a lot of events across the globe on a lot of those are in-person events. And so when you start to get to a situation where you have a pandemic on and you got all of these events set up, what do you do? Do you cancel them? Do you reschedule them? Do we flip them into virtual events? Do we do a lot more video conferencing? And so these are, like this would be like a real-time example of a challenge that we're dealing with. That's at the top of mind. But for me, one of the big challenges id We're a decent sized company. We're about 2000 people, and we have about 97,000 customers. But we're not a huge company, and we compete with someone like Microsoft that everyone on the planet knows. And so how do I get the awareness of Box and our capabilities and the problems we solve when you're competing with a company like Microsoft that everyone on the planet knows. And so I have to be a lot more nimble in how I spend the money, how I get our message across, how I gauge with our profits and customers that would be one major challenge. The other is the reputation of us as an organization, how do I make sure that we're seen in a good light, that our customers speak highly of us, that they're satisfied? I own the brand reputation along with our CEO of the company and making sure that we're seen in a positive light in the marketplace with our employees with our customers. That those of you, like a few good examples. And so in terms of accomplishments, a few different things that in the short nine months, I've been in the role. One example of it is rethinking how we tell our story to the marketplace. We and I described it as a key challenge, and one of the things we're doing is how do we create campaigns, creative messaging to our customers, our prospects that really breaks through the noise. I don't have hundreds of millions of dollars to spend on marketing to just blast TV advertising and everything else. So I have to do it in a very, very targeted way and whether that's how do I find the right buyers and individuals that need to hear our message? And how do I do that in a more cost-effective way, like digital and so customers coming into the role I've created a whole digital cross-functional strategy across the company that includes everyone from our customer success, sales, our product organization, our legal organization, our finance organization all coming together and really building a model to do to reach our customers in a much more digital way? I mean, that just didn't exist before I started. So these are just like little examples around the success we had, and in the last three months. It's actually had a pretty material effect on our ability to grow the business, and I think the company actually want to invest more in it, which is a great sign.

How do you inspire and motivate your team members? How do you foster creative thinking? How are ideas shared and implemented?

Based on experience at: Chief Marketing Officer, Box
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
I do have a very diverse team, which makes it hard some days because I'm what we would describe as context switching and every meeting we'll be talking about the brand and the next I'll be talking about a very detailed pricing strategy. And I try to have a philosophy of openness to try and experiment, and I talk a lot about failing fast, and we have to have a culture of taking risks and experiments, but learning from that really quickly because we're a very data-driven organization. I want people to have that freedom to come upwith ideas. And so one of the things I described before is a new creative campaign. We did that in house, and we crowdsourced that across a lot of people in the organization and said, "Hey, here's the concept put in" and luckily, Box has a platform that allows people to collaborate in real-time across their content. But we've allowed people from all organizations to provide ideas around what we could you and messaging and all that. And so we did that in a time frame that said, "Hey, we're next week. We've got these documents, go fill ideas in" and we sort of crowdsourced this. So that would be one thing that we do quite a bit. We also do a lot of as I would describe, is just speak down brainstorm, right? No idea is a bad idea. Let's throw it out. Let's whiteboard it. What could we be doing differently? How could we be challenging everything we've always done. The thing that I absolutely can't stand, two things. One we've always done it this way. Like that is a non starter for me or yeah, we did this four years ago and it didn't work. Well, a lot of things have changed in the market in four years, and just because it doesn't work then doesn't mean it wouldn't work today. Why don't we have a hypothesis? Why don't we test it? And we might be surprised that maybe this time it'll work. And we have, like, I described a very data-driven philosophy, but we think about creativity and data like the ying and yang they have to work in conjunction to continue to evolve and innovate as a company.

How do you set targets for your team members? How do you measure their progress? How do you incentivize them to meet their targets?

Based on experience at: Chief Marketing Officer, Box
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
We have a very formal process. I talked about our key performance indicators. So, actually, I have a dashboard each quarter that I outlined all the key indicators with specific ways to measure that. And so one of the key things that when you set targets is they have to be measurable. And they can't what I describe is there something can be binary. It's a yes, no, you deliver that? But if just everything is binary, then you do not really know whether it's successful or not. So we have a set of basically key activities we're gonna deliver upon in the quarter. I publish that to my entire marketing organization so everyone knows what's on my list. And then every one of my direct reports has their list, and then it goes down and down. So we actually have a goal of 95% of the organization has their own what we call, basically, OKRs or KPIs that they're gonna go deliver. And my expectation is on a monthly basis. My leadership team is checking in with them and really defining how are we? Are we on track with this? Do we need to take things off the list? Because priorities change. And so the way I think through this is a sort of a living document that goes through the quarter. And at the end of the quarter, we're graded and then we're graded all the way up. And then I have to create my scorecard, basically, for my organization and I share that with our CEO, My boss, my CIO, My peers. And I say this is what I've accomplished. And I missed on this and I provide that transparency and I'll say, Well, the reason I missed it because X or we're gonna do it this quarter or we just de-prioritize that. So you have to be very deliberate around this, and it can't be. I created it in the beginning, and I'll just check-in at the end. It has to be sort of an organic process along the way that you're continually having those conversations with the team. It's mixed. Some of them are top-down, some of them at a corporate level based on our financial plan. and there's modeling that goes in like, for instance, our sales targets are top-down based on our financial projections. And there's a whole model that does that out and as part of that what is the pipeline we need to actually, go achieve that. And so that is model-based. So a bunch of these are just top-down. Hey, this is what the model says. Here's what the budget we've got. You've got to go deliver that. Others will be a debate within the team where we say, "Hey, I want a challenge." I want to challenge just across the organization and let's have this debate. So one perfect example is inorganic search. So that is when someone goes on searches for a specific term, where does it show up in Google? The list of Google priorities? Right now there are certain keywords we're not in the top five, and I have said to my team, we need to be in the top five. I want to get to number four. And I want you to build me a plan. And you need to tell me what it is that we've got to go do so that I could be in the top five and so in their OKR, we will show in this quarter, I'm gonna move up to two spots to get to number six. And then in the next quarter, I'm gonna do a bunch of activities. Get to number four. Some of them are debatable and others it's topped down, but it's a very collaborative process around how we do that. 

What qualities do you look for while hiring? What kind of questions do you typically ask from candidates?

Based on experience at: Chief Marketing Officer, Box
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
I'm hiring usually fairly senior people in our organization. You know, obviously there's some experience thing that I'm looking for a while I'm hiring, but for me, there are a few things that again it goes back to my original piece written around the philosophy I have a bit is, are they naturally curious? Because we're in a mode as a company where we're growing, we're evolving. You've got to be agile and respond to things. And I'm looking for people that really are just are naturally curious. They wanna learn, they want to figure things out. Because of me as a leader, I don't have the time to go and tell them exactly what they've gotta go do. I need leaders that are gonna come up and be creative and think through the ideas and really own that. So for me, sort of this natural curiosity really thinking about are they gonna learn on their own? Or they gonna figure this stuff out and are really just naturally curious. I think the other piece that we think about quite a bit as an organization, and we are we're always ranked in, as one of the top places to work as culture is really important. And do we have the right culture of people? We have the right diversity. We think a lot about this diversity of thought, diversity of experience, backgrounds and what are they gonna bring to my team? And so I think a lot about this, almost as a set of individuals across the team. I don't need everyone to be the same, to think the same. That's not how you create high performing teams. So I'm really thinking about as I talk to candidates. What are they gonna bring to the team that we may not have today? And their experience might be different. Their personality might be different. So for me, like the culture is, it's important building a high functioning team that I'm really thinking about, how they fit in with the rest of the folks. And then I look at it again. It goes back to what is their experience? Where have they learned? Can they learn? And some of the questions I ask are examples around where did you fail and what did you learn? And how do you and what do you do when you need help? And so, like different things that I look for in individuals? Are they willing to ask for help when they get stuck? And I think often as you get more senior in your career, you don't actually want to ask for help. And for me, that's like a sign of strength. Someone says I don't know this. I actually need your help. And so I'm testing on these things. You know that these are the intangible things to me really gonna help us get to the high performing team. But in addition, obviously, I'm looking for the functional expertise of you. Can they do the job? Have they had this experience? And if they haven't, is there something they've done that might translate that I think they can still be successful. So those are the types of questions I start to ask individuals trying to get a sense of the intangibles. In addition to their accomplishments as well.

What is a typical hiring process for a job like yours? What are the titles of people who interview? What questions usually get asked and how to handle them?

Based on experience at: Chief Marketing Officer, Box
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
For me specifically, I'm usually hiring more, obviously, more the senior folks, whether that's a sort of a director and above. So we in our structure, we have a director, senior director, VP, and then SVP or Chief, one of the chief roles within the organization. So the typical hiring process for that is we do screenings. So we have an executive recruiting team that does the screenings, but we'll sit down and we'll build a profile. of the key capabilities that we're looking for, what are the experiences were looking for? If they don't have this, are there other things that are tangible that we could? So we build a profile, and then the recruiting team typically goes out and gets candidates in the pipeline at this at sort of the director level plus. A lot of these roles aren't necessarily published on. That's one of the things is you get a bit more senior majority of the roles don't actually get published on LinkedIn or Indeed or any of those other things there. Actually, you're there with recruiters or executive search firms that they find that. So there's a little bit of trick when you get to that certain level, and so they'll do that screening. I usually for any of my direct reports. I do the initial call, and it's usually video, and it's getting to know them, understanding their motivation. Why are they talking to me? What interests them about Box? What do they see are some of the challenges with us? What are some of the good things you're hearing about Box? So sort of going through that process, really understanding what's their motivation because most of the folks that I talked with already have a great job somewhere else. And I just want to know why. Why they're willing to have a conversation with me, right? So once we get through, that will say, "Hey, I really liked that individual, that got the right skill set. They seem like a good fit. Let's bring him in." And so we'll do what we were doing in person. Now we're trying to figure out how do you do video conferencing. A little bit more for interview process is and then we'll have a panel and it will be usually a panel of their peers and so on. And then what we try to do is have each of the individuals pick a specific area and ask a bunch of questions around that area. So, hey, why don't you figure out how are they around this aspect of the job and ask some questions around that? And so we sort of build a plan to each individual, And then we'll have a few questions that will sort of ask across every interviewee and then see if that candidate is willing to have a consistent message or does it change based on it? And we use a process called Greenhouse, which is a product. And then our interview panel gets all the comments in, and then we do a debrief before we take that person in for the final interview. For us, there is basically a screening and in-person and one last in-person, given the level of roles that were typically hiring for.

What are different entry-level jobs and subsequent job pathways that can lead students to a position such as yours?

Based on experience at: Chief Marketing Officer, Box
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
There's a lot of different ways to get to CMO, and there's a lot of different CMO type. But, I would say in my organization, there are quite a few different roles that you have people sort of early in their career they think through that. So one could be, I've got folks that we call our program management. They come in and help us across the set of initiatives actually work cross-functionally, and they get to experience around almost like project managing, for example, a big launch that we have for a new product. So they run the program to make sure that that gets launched and they have to work cross-functionally with all the experts. But they're actually there to help keep them all in line. So that's one. It could be a designer. So I've got a brand team. You might have someone that comes out of university, that comes out of a creative, user experience. And they could come into marketing that right. And they're really good around the creative aspect, around the brand and design. I could hire someone in that product marketing organization right there. My command has more of an entry-level product marketing manager, where they might be partnered with someone a more senior PM and they think about the positioning and the strategy and the market opportunity know that for that specific product. I've got other folks in my campaign team, and so someone that might actually be an email strategist or an In-app messaging strategist where they're working with the product marketing team of the product organization, really to think about what messages do I get to customers and prospects and work through that? So there's a lot of different ways within a marketing organization to sort of build skill sets and for a role like mine, there's a few different I would describe as a few different CMO examples. So one CMO is that have a very brand focus and those individuals are very much around what's the reputation of the company? What's the brand value? It's all about the message and the brand. Sometimes they work in companies themselves. A lot of times they also work in the agency. So an advertising agency that brand individuals, they get experience there and then go become a CMO of a company. And it's someone who is really from a brand. I also see CMO. They're very much what we describe as demand generation. They are you're often seeing like growth CMO is like this title that's coming out and they're really thinking about how do I get new customers? How did I get prospects? How do I grow the business? What programs? I've got a big digital experience vent and like they go through that piece of it and then you have CMOs that are very much around product positioning there. Like I am an expert on how to position this product, that marketplace, where we fit, what's the total number of marketeers, and occasionally you have COMs like a communications person, that sometimes become CMO. And then there are people like me that have done a little bit of all of that but don't have expertise across all of them. And that's why I rely on my leadership team. They're experts in each one of those areas. But I am thinking horizontally across all of that and making sure that we've got a strategy that all ties together. So that's where I think part of it is just getting functional expertise around one of these areas and marketing. It's sort of growing, but also, if you want to be a journalist, hop around and do some different things to get that experience if you ever want to be a CMO.

What were the responsibilities and decisions that you handled at work? What major challenges did you face in your job?

Based on experience at: Head of GTM and Product Marketing, Creative Cloud for Enterprise, Adobe
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
So at Adobe that role, if you sort of think about what that is, it is very similar where I thought about how do I grow the creative cloud business and for anyone that does or doesn't know creative cloud. That's the little thing called photoshop. Everyone knows Photoshop. In-design is another product. It was a very interesting but exciting role. I was at Adobe a long time, through an amateur acquisition. So I've spent a lot of time in Utah, and so the big challenge there is we have as I would describe as we had a very strong market position. The Adobe Creative suite is basically the industry standard around content creation for every most every company on the planet, there are more companies that are starting to come up. But, you know, over the last 20 years, Adobe has owned this from a marketplace perspective. So my biggest challenge there, and so I was responsible for growing that business. I owned that basically how do I grow this business that x percent year over year. How do I make sure that we're retaining the customers and I make sure that they're adopting all the capabilities? Very robust set of Suite. So very similar to what I'm doing now as to what sort of work I doing it at Adobe. And so when you start to think about the challenges of Adobe that was less about getting new customers, it was more about how do I make sure that I can continue to maintain these customers, get them to use additional capabilities we're building. And then as Adobe built new products, how do I get that into and get new customers? I mean, existing customers to buy those new capabilities. And so it was less about an acquisition. This was much more cross-sell and usage and adoption, upward of that industry standard. And it's also hard when you don't have a lot of prospects how do you grow the business? And so you're growing the business at a very healthy percentage with a finite set of customers on, and so that's when you gotta go cross-sell them and convince them there's a lot more value that we continue to bring. And that's why it gets slowly more expensive year every year, every year, in growing this business. But it was fascinating but similar but very different in the approaches of Box right now.

How did the school prepare you for your career? Think about faculty, resources, alumni, exposure & networking. What were the best parts?

Based on experience at: MBA, Marketing, Georgia State University
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
It seems like a long time ago. I actually decided to get my MBA while I was still working. And so that was was an interesting time in my life where I was trying to have a full time job and go at night. And it was very difficult. But I think what an MBA prepares you for is really how do you think strategically, across a lot of different disciplines. And you get visibility into a lot of different parts of the business and whether that's, I'm not a finance person. But going through a lot of those finance classes gave me a foundation of how do I think about being data driven ROI focused individual like that is critically important to me. Am I making money for the company? Is every dollar that I spend what is the ROI out of that? And so those examples around that So I think for me, it really gave me a foundation. A different way to think about things than probably what I was, how I was running in the day today, and then it gave me exposure into a lot of different subject areas that I didn't get in undergrad, and I wasn't getting in my way today, so that was fantastic. And then from a network and resource, I had moved away from the Atlanta area, which Georgia state is very much still a regional university, that in the South it's fantastic. So it hasn't necessarily help me fully from networking and a resource perspective, But I am still connected to the university. But again, so I haven't seen as much benefit from that. For me, it was more about challenging my thought process. And me really getting excited about learning new things sort of moulded my my philosophy moving forward from a career perspective.

Would you like to share something that is not on your resume? This may include your passions, facing setbacks or adversities, a unique experience, or an unexpected help.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
So many different questions we could spend a couple of hours on that one. There's a couple of things that may not fully show up on my resume. So once I've done a couple of startups and as I've worked from a very large organization with 30,000 plus people to startups with less than 50 people, and I actually worked at a start-up. I worked at SunTrust Bank in Atlanta. I left the organization. I went to a small start-up. I had a friend that convinced me to go. "This is the greatest thing you should come" and it was pretty much a colossal failure. And, it was really difficult to leave a stable company where I built a great reputation and took a risk. And it failed and that was okay because I learned a ton in that experience that year. I learned about how do you deal with when you've got to go fire half an organization, and what do you do? And what do you don't do? And so there's a real like life lessons that painful as it may be, I still had to deal with. One of the things that I also learned is if you ever leave a job, don't burn bridges. Because after that year, I realized this where we're gonna be for me. I still had great relationships at SunTrust. So I went back and they took me back saying, "Hey, we get it. You wanted to go try this startup thing? We're happy you came back" and I spent several years with them again. So, like, that was one thing that, I think it's really important to fail. It's hard, but you learn from those examples and always, always keep great relationships. You never know where that's gonna land. And I have a ton of examples where I have been lucky enough to be given an opportunity because it's 10 years ago I've done something. It worked with someone and we hit it off. And then it led me to an opportunity down the road. So I think that's one thing, and then one of these I'm trying to do now is actually to give back more and so I'm actually working with a few different companies I had lunch. I'm working where the company called a nonprofit called Career Village that's trying to give students a Q and A and really them understanding what questions they have around careers and having people of them. So I'm working with the founder, spending some time helping him grow that business, and it's just it's absolutely rewarding for me. And I'm doing that a bit more than I probably have over the last 20 years. And one hindsight is, I wish I had done it earlier. And so you know, there's always time. Your time can be, jobs can suck it up as much as you will allow it. And so part of it is is really from time management. I just wish I would have wished I would have done and carved up more time earlier to get back to the community and others and really share what I've learned. So, CareerVillage.org and it's a fantastic organization. I'm trying to help them grow. And just that an absolutely amazing woman who's helping built it.

Do you have any parting advice for students hoping to get to a position such as yours? What 3 dos and 3 don'ts would you suggest?

Based on experience at: Chief Marketing Officer, Box
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Fri Mar 06 2020
Three Dos and Don'ts? One would be don't assume that your career is gonna be linear. And what I mean by that is I think a lot of people come out and they say, "Well, I'm gonna get this job which is gonna lead to this job is gonna lead to this job is gonna get me here." I think if you think that way, you're gonna be set up for failure because I just don't. It doesn't naturally happen that way anymore. And so part of this is to have that flexibility to think about your career and your growth. Where are you gonna learn? Where you going to give opportunities to build upon skills that you won't have to think about it that way and it will come. I'd say that that's one aspect. Two? And sounds like a cliche. But, don't always just focus on the money. And that is one where I've been very fortunate over time to continue to grow? I've taken lateral moves that have paid me, less money, but I thought about this as "Hey, I'm investing in myself, or I'm gonna go learn something that I haven't learned before". That aspect of it. The other is if you can take risks and challenge yourself. If you feel like you're getting into this spot where it's very comfortable, you can get into that. I would say into that state for a very long period of time. And if you're not growing and you're not learning you're not being challenged, you're never gonna get to that senior spot. You have to get to that level of, it's okay to feel uncomfortable. One of the things that I think is this unsung and untold story is, everyone has imposter syndrome. No one thinks they actually deserve in being in the role that they're in. And it doesn't matter who you talked to you in any history that all worry about. It's like how I can't do that role like I don't have the experience. Everyone feels that sense. I would challenge you if you are in that grade, that means you're learning. You're challenging yourself and you're growing. The don'ts? And I hit on this a little bit earlier. Don't burn bridges, right? And don't do something, that you are not gonna wake up every morning and think about this is I want to get out of bed, and I want to go and go do this. And if you find yourself in that situation, don't just do it and stick with it. Get something that should wake you up and get excited up together that every day. And if don't if it doesn't, then don't do it. And have that courage to go and do something different. So I would say that.