SonicWall Global HR Director
Brigham Young University Master of Business Administration (M.B.A.), Business Administration and Management, General
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How did you get to where you are today? What is your story? What incidents and experiences shaped your career path?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
I started off my undergrad not exactly knowing what I wanted to do. A good friend of mine who was a professor down at the university that I attended San Diego suggested that I should speak with one of his colleagues who was a former executive that Pepsico, Taco Bell and so as I spoke with him, he asked me what was I interested in? I said that I was interested in business generally, and he said, if you're going to study business, you should study finance or accounting so that you can have a foundation in the numbers and you can read financial statements so that kind of started mentorship for me with this professor, it was great and I trusted him. So I started off on the finance route ended up in an audit class where my professor at the time said you should think of the Big Four. I wasn't sure what the Big Four was at the time and I'm familiar with Final Four basketball, college basketball, but not Big Four. So I actually applied for an internship at PricewaterhouseCoopers in San Diego and spent a summer there and then decided to go full time. All that being said in the back of my mind, I always had an interest in human resource management in HR and so during my undergrad, I took some of those classes and long term kind of felt like I'd end up somewhere in the HR world but I had this great opportunity in front of me and PricewaterhouseCoopers as an auditor and so, starting off my career, I started it as an associate in the San Diego office. My primary client was Sony Electronics, which at the time was about 13 billion in revenue. I think it's shrunk since then, but it really did provide me with a good foundation of going into different organizations. As I said, Sony was my primary client, but I had others, smaller ones, mortgage companies. So it gave me a good diverse experience with different site companies and I realized that one of the things that I like to do is study organizations and more the people side of things because I had kind of found myself in the niche in accounting. Everybody looked at my resume, Big four, it was hard for me to break into the HR world. I applied to grad school a couple of times. I was accepted to a couple of programs one at Columbia, the other at Purdue turned both opportunities down and continued for a few years in accounting. Eventually, I ended up any compensation role which seemed to pair well with my accounting and finance background but also put me into the HR track and then so I did mergers and acquisitions the company that I was at in San Diego was a life sciences company, and the CEO was growing the company through mergers and acquisitions. So my responsibility was to be the HR compensation partner with a lot of these acquisitions. So gave me exposure to HR, but still kept a lot of those finance and quantitative skills fresh. Eventually, I should say at the time I took a certificate program in HR in parallel so I could get more HR training and start to position myself a bit more in that area so that I could get into a career full time in HR that led me eventually to Goldman Sachs. This professor of mine took a position here in Utah, a professor position here in Utah, and put me in touch with the recruiter, Goldman Sachs where I spent four years as chief of staff for the technology. During that time, I decided to pursue an executive MBA program at BYU so I did that from 2014 to 2016 and then that chief of staff role a lot of my responsibilities were very much HR-related employee development, trying to do more in recruitment. We were struggling to get our story out in the Utah market that Goldman Sachs is a great destination for engineers and technologists. So one of my responsibilities would start to build partnerships with the universities but once I finished my MBA, I still wasn't necessarily a dedicated HR role. I will just as a side if you look back through my career when I wasn't reading for pleasure or what I did read for pleasure was related to HR and my father has a background in HR and labor relations as a labor relations attorney so, at that point, I realized this is probably the best route for me. At the same time, I was very appreciative of the fact that I had an accounting and finance background so that I could speak the language with OPS, finance, and accounting and so on and so forth so that brings me to where I am at currently, I'm SonicWall. SonicWall is a cybersecurity company based in Milpitas, California. We have a remote HR team here in Utah, our head of our chief administrative officer, head of legal and HR are based here and that is how I found out that job. He moved into my neighborhood so we got to talk one day and the company that I'm at Sonic Wallet at the time he moved here, had split from Dell, Software Group, and it was purchased by private equity firm Francisco Partners. So my role today is fully full-time HR, it's been a little bit of a windy road to get to where I'm at and I shared the background just because sometimes it's not a linear path but ultimately where I'm at where I wanted to be and I cover basically all of our HR operations and all the HR responsibilities outside America and we're in 36 different countries.

What are the responsibilities and decisions that you handle at work? Discuss weekly hours you spend in the office, for work travel, and working from home.

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
I'll start with the weekly work hours, typically, I'm working probably 70 to 80 hours a week because we work at private equity for a private equity company, we run very leanly our focus is on top-line growth, showing growth and managing our EBITA. My responsibilities, they vary, in most organizations, you have dedicated teams in HR to different functions, for example, you'll have HR operations or IT operations specialists that are running the technology, the onboarding programs and so that actually all falls under me while at the same time, as I mentioned earlier, I oversee all of the international HR. We don't have business partners, for example, we don't have a business partner in Europe, so I'll cover and be the business partner for Europe. We do have some help in Asia, specifically in China, and we have an HR business partner, a junior-level partner in India but ultimately, the HR responsibilities day to day employee relations you name, it falls under my stewardship. As far as the daily decisions have to make terminations, we have to understand the local laws in all these different countries and if we have to terminate employees rather for performance or restructuring, those are decisions that I confront every day, how do you terminate somebody in France or Germany? and have to understand those local laws and make sure that we don't run afoul of local legislation. Other decisions are like performance management, how are we going to deploy launching deploy performance management and so I oversee that process. Now that we've built an HR team here in Utah over the past year, I've been able to delegate some of that responsibility but that still comes into my area stewardship. Other decisions, I just got off the phone right before this interview with our head of sales. So we have to look at the budget for our headcount and also see how that matches up with our revenue projections. So we're close with our head of sales and finance to make sure that we are getting the best return on our investment meeting our investment in our people so it's a daily lot of decisions every day. I was commenting to someone that sometimes I've got to make a decision of what to do said a termination in Germany. How did you do it? What do we need to do and then turn around and make a decision on whether or not we're going to retain someone so it's quite a bit of responsibility in this role.

What tools (software services, websites, data sources, and programs) do you use at work? Do you prefer certain tools more than the others? Why?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
Some of the tools that we use, we have an HR information system. This is our employee record system, where it maintains all of our compensation, personal information, you name it whatever it relates to the employee's record we used the HRIS. We have created some proprietary tools working closely with our engineering team internally, with our HRIS, it's very limited. When I came on board, we were actually using the DELL system originally, but because we split, we had to get our own, and a decision was made to go with a small, inexpensive platform and fortunately, that platform is good for a North American based company with 500 employees, however, we are 1600 employees across 36 countries, and so we had to make it work. So what we've had to do is really work with our engineering team to do some back integrations with salesforce, Concur is our expense traveling expense platform and then we've had to create some proprietary tools for onboarding, offboarding, and we recently created some dashboards and power BI because our tool is not sufficient to be able to provide that kind of tool. So those are some of the main tools we use, of course, Excel, Microsoft team have become internally very helpful for us to collaborate and then we just got other HR platforms. Cornerstone, which is a learning management system and both performance management and pay planning. We use that primarily for performance management pay planning. We also have some other tools, such as to Payfactors that help us manage our compensation and benefits data. Externally, we also leverage a compensation survey called Radford. Radford is known as the kind of gold standard in the compensation survey market. We use that to ensure that we pay employees fairly, and we recently switched to Radford because 90% of our competitors use it so we want to make sure that we're comparing apples to apples with our competitor's pay.

What qualities do you look for while hiring for your team? What kind of questions do you typically ask from candidates?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
From my perspective and again I'm an HR and so from an HR perspective, I actually try to look for an analytical background and that's probably because I have an accounting undergrad but when I was looking for our HR operations manager, I was looking for somebody with a technical background, whether it was engineering, finance, accounting, but someone who had an interest in HR or had some sort of background in it. And so, for this particular individual, she had her MBA in finance so I wanted somebody who could really think analytically but also was able to pair that with an interest in the people side of the business. So for someone in an HR operations role, I needed that because we're really dealing a lot with the process, and more and more, we're dealing with technology so somebody who could get in and learn how technology functions could generally speak the same level as computer engineers and then that's been a very important skill for me on my team. When I look at other roles, for example, recruitment, I look for business people who can understand the business. We've had our director of recruitment that we hired here two years ago when we interviewed her what stood out was the fact that she could really understand the business. She wasn't just a recruiter, she knew how to pair the business needs and understand the business needs with the requirements for the roles and I'll tell you right now that hire alone has been critical for the success of our company, and we may get into this later in the interview but we hired 480 people last year across 4 to 5 recruiters and a lot of that is because our recruitment director knew how to get into the business, understood the needs and then was able to match candidates with those specific needs.

What are commonly used methods to review employees in your industry domain? Which one do you prefer? Why?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
That's a good question. In terms of evaluating, I understand the question, What are some of the tools or methods we use to evaluate the employees in our field or in the industry? One of the things that Salesforce is a tool that we've used to manage our KPI's for our sales employees. We're currently working, we meaning HR are currently working closely with our sales operations team so that we can align on performance metrics and really track performance against we have seven different KPI's that we're going to track against, those are critical those are reviewed on a weekly basis with our head of sales and so we're starting to develop that methodology, it's still kind of in its infancy about what we found is been important from an HR perspective because if we get down to the end of employees lifecycle say we have to terminate somebody in a lot of countries we need support to be able to do that unlike here at the U.S. and a lot of countries you have to have months of coaching, documentation so now we're starting to develop some of those techniques or that I should say those metrics to be able to make sure we're tracking together. The other thing that I found and I think it's been very important is it in a company like ours where we split from DELL, hundreds of thousands of employees that operated with a lot of standards we have somewhat functioned as a start-up, a ver long-tenured, and well-funded startup but nonetheless, a lot of the things that we've had to set up from scratch so we've had to set up certain standards across functions, whether it be sales, our customer success tech support rather than manage through exceptions and having a standard global program is really important and I speak that generally when it comes to that question. Currently, we've been doing just an annual performance review and we know that's not sufficient. So what we did last quarter is we actually got out on the road and traveled to the various offices and held manager training and what we found was that a lot of managers were not holding one on one meetings and there's actually a correlation between those one on one meetings and, of course, employee satisfaction of the company. We are about to implement 360 feedback over the next couple of weeks. We actually have a tool that we're going to explore but up to this point it's been an annual review, employees were evaluated on six questions ranging from whether if you are sales employees its attainment performance, attitude, innovation and creativity and then overall, just making sure that people align with the priorities and values of the company but for the most part as I said, we're somewhat in our infancy.

What incentives, compensation and bonus types are commonly used in your industry domain? Which one do you prefer? Why?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
I've experienced a few different tools or compensation programs and incentives. Currently, we have a base salary, let's say a performance bonus for the nonsales or non-quota-carrying employees and that bonus is an annual bonus, and it takes the form of both corporate results and also individual performance throughout the year. So, we're currently going through the annual performance review and we'll wrap it up next week and then coming out of that will evaluate individual performance and then we'll also be getting our year-end results, financial results. So there are two components to that bonus again corporate performance and then the individual performance so depending on how we did as a company, it will fund a certain pool of money to allocate for those bonuses and then individuals based on their reviews of their performance over the past year are given a percentage based on certain targets at different levels that's kind of your basic salary and bonus. In addition to that, we do grant equity to certain levels and a lot of that equity will vest at the time of either IPO or if we sell, then people will be entitled to that. They usually have some sort of clause that you have to be here at the time of the going public or the acquisition and then we have had a historically LTI or other long term incentives which are time-based so here at SonicWall, there are some of the things that we have within the sales division. There are other programs of Spiff, other opportunities, and programs for earning additional incentives and in my prior company, you were granted stock options and then in some cases, RSU's restricted stock units. I prefer those, and I prefer the fact that they have some sort of time-based component, but also some measure of achievement. So, delivering a certain project, over a certain time to me those are basically you better retain people, and you truly do reward people for the inputs that they provide.

What labor law oversights do you often see in the industry? How do you ensure that such oversights don't happen in your company?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
This one is a little personal to me because of my responsibility internationally, it's really critical to keep up with the labor laws in various countries. In terms of oversights, in my current role, I think to make sure that we either have sufficient outside counsel to help guide us or we have somebody that is on the ground in that region, I think that's really important. I still see it and throughout my career, some biases when it comes to recruitment, managers, typically like that, have people who are just like them, think like them, I think we all have a tendency to do that and that is something that we've had to address from an HR perspective, whether it's because of race, nationality, cultural differences. One of the things that I've seen in my role and I was just talking to our director recently about this, that in some instances people will reject resumes, we've got hundreds of resumes coming in on certain jobs, and so we do look for patterns somewhere we've had maybe a report that there's some discriminative hiring then we'll look at the patterns, and trends to see if those things are manifesting themselves say in the number of the resumes that are coming through that they're from a certain region or certain nationality and it's not just North America I would say it's throughout several countries so that's an area that we do try to manage and how do we deal with those? A lot of times will just sit down with the manager and we'll pull out the pattern and we'll have the conversation and we will have to make sure we protect against that but that has happened several times in my crew.

What types of leadership development programs have you found to be effective?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
One of the programs that I think looking back at my time at Goldman Sachs was that they had a great leadership development program. Some of the ways that were unique were that they had some of their own people running it. So we, as employees, would run those development programs rather than always have somebody from externally coming in. When I was with PricewaterhouseCoopers again, a very good job of having kind of peer mentoring or even having leadership mentoring types of opportunities. I think to be able to have that coaching from somebody who's in a role that you want to be in or somebody who has different types of experiences and different functions, I think those types of development growth programs really benefit people. I look throughout my career, I look at individual mentors who have coached me and guided me throughout my career. When I was at Goldman, they have the people run survey results come out one year and I remember looking at all the percentages to see where things were going good but I also looked at the areas where the firm and our division in Salt Lake City could improve. Interestingly, the one area that got the lowest scores satisfaction scores was my manager helps me with my career development, is engaged in my career development and so right before I left, I was starting to discuss a program whereby, coaching, it kind of executive coaching, but for the masses, not just for the upper leadership, could really go a long way to address that. A lot of times managers, either they don't have an incentive because they don't want their employees to leave or they just don't know how to engage in career discussions. I do think those are important because when it comes to development, leadership development or career development, career development is a part of that, Where do I want to get to? What do I really would see myself doing? And then am I doing those things, those requirements to meet that job? On one occasion, I had a young associate at Goldman coming to my office and said, You know, I want to go get my MBA. I said, But why? Well, I want to make money. Everybody else is getting an MBA and now he was a computer science major and I said, Well, what do you want to do with your career? And as he started to talk to me, it sounded more like he really what he wanted to do was stay in the technical side of his job and of his career so by being able to have that conversation with him and say, Well, I don't really know that MBA is what you want to do. Now I have just finished my MBA, and that's why he was asking me but he saw me as a senior person in the office who could provide some guidance, and that's why I think those types of development programs where it's more one on one individual. I think those go a long way because they really meet what people's needs are as they desire.

When and how do you work with external recruiters or agencies? How do you ensure that they find, assess, and communicate to candidates as per your needs?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
Interestingly, very candidly we've actually almost now gone exclusively away from external agencies. We were spending well over 1,000,000 a year agency fees so we've basically now pulled back on that for the past year, year and a half. We've been able to pull that back down to maybe $50,000. So for us, for in my perspective, if you got the right recruitment team, you can avoid some of that. Now there are certain levels where it's necessary and of course, price is always a factor but I'll give an example of a search that we did get to hire an external agency specifically in Japan. We had some specific expertise that we needed in a certain role and so, after speaking with several people who had been in that Asia Pacific region, had a lot of experience, they recommended someone who spent 30 years in Japan specifically recruiting technical talent and so, by getting comfortable with the fact that this person really knew the market, they knew who the players were and through an interview, we felt comfortable that we would we could engage them and at that point, we actually even thought said that we would be willing to pay the extra premium for that type of expertise.

What was the hiring process like for your job? What were the roles of people who interviewed you? What kind of questions were asked?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
This one is very different than Goldman Sachs again. We split from DELL, owned by a private equity firm, we've had to set everything up from scratch. The interview process for this job was very much my now boss moved into my neighborhood we got together, and we're talking about my passion for HR. He told me that he was head of legal and HR, he flew me out to California to headquarters, meet me with a couple of people, including our IT director, which now, looking back, I'm not exactly sure why. Then I interviewed and for him, I think he felt comfortable enough in our discussions about the role leading up to the interview process that I was somebody that he could count on, had enough experience to be able to do do the role. Going back to Goldman, it was a completely different process that process took I think it was a total of 2 to 3 months. I interviewed with 14 different people, at various levels of the company as chief of staff that's a role that's typically hired internally. So for that role it was quite a grueling process and one of the main questions was Look, you're coming in, you're applying to this chief of staff role and you know, the importance of that role in Salt Lake City is that all the other functions and the other chiefs of staff are all in New York, aligned with their business units. How are you going to come in and Network? Because you need to be able to get things done now that you're in a remote office like Salt Lake City. My response to that was simply I have been through 14 interviews, I think I've got 14 person network now internally already but it was completely different. So probably at Goldman Sachs, that interview process is going to be very different. It's a start-up or a smaller company they're looking for different types of characteristics, attributes. Goldman Sachs will be a very much more structured, well-defined environment. Whereas the company that I am at is going to be Hey, is this person going to be the one to help get some of those policies of standards set up. Are they able to move fast, move quickly and have to make decisions on the fly? So a very different process and you can see the difference in the companies just in the way that the interview process or the recruitment process took place.

What are different entry-level jobs and subsequent job pathways that can lead students to a position such as yours?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
So in human resources, I think there are more paths to HR now. I'm seeing more and more at the senior level, I'm seeing more and more people come through a nontraditional path. I think historically you've had a lot of communications or psychology majors they go into HR. The more that it becomes tech-driven, automation is starting to come into play. I am seeing more people come in through may be an information systems background. In my experience, finance or some sort of analytical type of background but it's people that want to apply some of those technical skills to people-oriented jobs. So when I think of entry-level jobs, I do think recruitment is definitely a path. We still see that a lot of people who start in recruiting and then end up transferring over to, say, a business partner role. For other positions like someone who's an information systems major, there's a lot of opportunity with HR Tech, whether it's with HR Information systems analyst also some of these new platforms being an integration specialist. There's so much overlap now between I should say so much emphasis on integrations with HR systems and other systems, financial systems or whatever that technical skill is critical.

How did the program prepare you for your career? Think about faculty, resources, alumni, exposure & networking. What were the best parts?

Based on experience at: Master of Business Administration (M.B.A.), Business Administration and Management, General, Brigham Young University
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
The things that I felt that because maybe I already had an accounting background and finance, so some of those courses were repetitive, I've already been through a lot of that. For me, I enjoyed actually the entrepreneurship portion and really have applied that more to my current job and actually, what I'm looking to do going forward beyond SonicWall and beyond, even this role, entrepreneurship is something that isn't just starting a new company, it's having entrepreneurship within a company, using innovation, using some of those entrepreneurship skills, actually, transfer well, and that was something that was probably more of a surprise to me coming out of the MBA program than anything. I went in thinking, I'm going to network with people, which I did. I'm going to use this to of course get a better title and more money but really, what I took out of it was, I felt like I came away with more of an entrepreneurial mindset, more of a creative mindset than I anticipated especially from an MBA and so that's that to me it's really benefited me in that manner as I think about my career going forward and I think about even some of the tools in my current role that MBA helped me to think through maybe I will start my own thing after I leave SonicWall or in the future.

How did the program prepare you for your career? Think about faculty, resources, alumni, exposure & networking. What were the best parts?

Based on experience at: HR Director Certificate, Human Resources, Cornell University
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
The certificate kind of helped me get more entrenched into the HR role. I have been focused mostly on compensation, and that was kind of my foray into HR from accounting and finance so what it did is it gave me, something on my resume to help start to distinguish me from just being someone who is at the Big Four accounting firm been an auditor, been an accountant. It just helped kind of differentiate me, and I needed that to be able to get to the next jobs that I wanted, and it ultimately get into HR so that's really what would the intent was. What I took away from that were some skills and some training specifically in HR that I had never had up to that point but it was the whole purpose of that certificate was to help differentiate me and give me that HR training on my resume.

Would you like to share something that is not on your resume? This may include your passions, facing setbacks or adversities, a unique experience, or an unexpected help.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
It's funny because I've been in this mode here for the past three years. Some of my passions and my hobbies have fallen by the wayside a little bit because I've just been so entrenched in this work. Some interesting things, though. I'm originally from San Diego, moved up to Utah seven years ago, and so I grew up surfing, I grew up in the beach, I grew up playing sports, but since moving here to Utah just a couple of years ago, started skiing a little bit, and that's fun. I will say that I've of grown from going down a herald pizza style, actually being able to ski a little bit, unfortunately, my wife or fortunately for her while I'm working a lot of times, she'll go hit the slopes, and she's fallen in love with ski, and we both started at the same time and just this last week, she told me how many black diamonds she went down and how I need to start getting out and skiing with her, and I said that I work 70-80 hours a week when am I going to ski and she said, well, you just got to schedule it. So at this point, I've told her that what will probably happen is that I will now be at the lodge hanging out and she'll be at the black diamonds or I'll be on the bunny slopes and she can do that. So there's a gap, it's widening every day that I don't ski, but I do have taken it up, and it's a lot of fun.

Do you have any parting advice for students and professionals hoping to get to a position such as yours? What 3 dos and 3 don'ts would you suggest?

Based on experience at: Global HR Director, SonicWall
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Tue May 12 2020
I would say, if you have an idea of what you want to do and I go back in my career, and I knew that I wanted to do HR, I knew that in my undergrad. Look out for those things that you really find yourself gravitating to right now and then try and get yourself in that position right away whatever that role is. One of the regrets that I have is I got caught up a little bit in Hey, I've got PricewaterhouseCoopers on my resume. I get to go to the big four and when I was in San Diego, at the time, there were only four internships available, and there were 300 applicants for those four internships, and I was fortunate to get one of them, and so I almost found myself caught up in that, that look, I was one of the four. I better just go ahead and stick with this. When I look back, I wish I would have gone right into HR or at least even leaving Pwc, I wish I would have gone right into an HR role. I think I would have accelerated my path to where I'm at today. I'm a senior director of HR, I think I would have increased that trajectory a lot earlier in my career. So that's some parting advice that I would provide is if you have an idea of something that you're passionate about or you want to do, jump into it and try not to let maybe the allure of a big name get in the way. I felt like I was kind of chasing some of the big names at the time. Now, some may say that helped me get to where I'm at in my career perhaps, but I think I would have got that training in HR a lot sooner. The other thing I would say is, and it's somewhat related is look for the type of company you want to work at. If you like a structured global company, hundreds of thousands of employees where you can move up the corporate ladder or if you like that corporate environment where there is a standard structure then kind of search that out versus let's say a start-up, if you're somebody who likes exciting things and where every day is different that there is instant chaos or lack of structure that you can actually build, consider that. So my point is is that look at the type of company you want to go to. This is really this company here that I'm at SonicWall, it's very fast-paced, there are policies that aren't in the place that, frankly, you have to step up and say, Nobody's going do it, you've got to do it. I like that pace, I like a little bit of chaos and then bring in order to the chaos. What I loved about Goldman Sachs, conversely, is that there was a lot of order, a tremendous amount of resource is available to you whether it's training, development, the expertise, the knowledge that's all available to you at your fingertips or picking up the phone or send in the email you've got people in within the company. Here at a place like SonicWall, you may be that resource, or if you don't have the resources available to you, what are you going to do to go out and get up. So again, what I would say is think about the type of person you are, your personality if you like an 8 to 5 job, Do you like to work in 70 at 80 hours? And ultimately, what do you want to get out of it? For me here at SonicWall, I feel like I can look back over the three years and say, I've helped build this HR function and I had an integral part in building that, and I could look back with some pride obviously regrets but I can very much say that I'm passionate about what I've been able to deliver. Whereas, at Goldman, I was getting to a point where my job was very routine. I knew I could anticipate it every day. Here everything could change tomorrow, and then I have to adapt to it. So think about your personality and what works for you, and then make your decision in terms of where you're going to go with your career accordingly.