SoFi SVP, Head of Talent, Diversity, Employee Experience and Careers
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How did you get to where you are today? What is your story? What incidents and experiences shaped your career path?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
thank you very much for having me on this call. It's such a pleasure, Thio. It's kind of humbling to speak a little bit about my background, how I got here. Um, truthfully, I got here by dumb luck. I wish I could tell that there was some great strategy involved, but there really wasn't. I graduated from Berkeley, I was working for a law firm. And, um, I was interacting with individual who used Thio run a small personal agency, San Francisco, where we would often attract are paralegals from. And she asked me, You know, what does plan to do once I graduated and they didn't have much of a plan? And I said, I'm not sure if she basically invited me to come work for her, and I did, and it was truly the best decision I've ever made. Um, I'm one of those super lucky people who has fallen into something that they absolutely love from day one. And I love the art of understanding the complexity of a business and then identifying individuals in the marketplace and cultivating that talent and bringing them in and introducing them into an organization. And then, of course, seeing those individuals prosper and grow. So that's what I've been doing. I started with the company, obviously with this firm, um, Sybase, which some of you on the call may or may not know, it was one of the first relational database companies way out there. That was a bit the Sybase and Informix and Oracle. And, of course, Microsoft and SQL. We're all part of these big players. And so Sybase was a customer of, uh, the agency that I was working for they had sent in. This is before we had Internet, some kind of dating myself. But they actually faxed over an order for a recruiting coordinator, and I decided to apply for the job, got my foot into a tech. So I think the combination of really knowing early on about something that I really enjoyed and then applying that to an industry like high tech that was growing so quickly has really positioned me too, you know, to really kind of get to where I'm at. And so I've been really fortunate and very, very, very ungrateful for the, uh, please have a driving given

What responsibilities and decisions does one handle in a job like yours? What are the top three priorities? What are weekly work hours like?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
So I'm currently the SCP of talent. And that basically is a very fancy way of saying that my team and I responsible for talent, attraction and recruiting I'm also oversee all of our diversity initiatives and inclusion. And, of course, once people get to our company, um, it's, you know, Are we delivering on the promise? You know, they do what we say that I would say, you know, does the resort match, You know the brochure. So how many times we've been on vacation where the brochure looks great and you get there and you're like, Oh, what? This is not what What's up? The travel agent told me. So we wanna make sure that the employee experience surpasses anything that we possibly could have, uh, could could have spoken about during the interviewing experience and s Oh, my role really is focused on anything having to do with identifying talent and then making sure that that, um, talent has a great experience at the company. And, um, my three priorities are pretty are pretty, pretty easy. I want to make sure that we have an extraordinary talent friend, and that means that all 2000 employees at so fi are brand ambassadors that they are, in essence, recruiters that they're out there talking about how awesome it is to work at this company. And that's really important that you have evangelists out there on. The second thing is that individuals, when they come to consider so far that they're having a very fair and a very incl inclusive hiring process, that they know that they are having a chance to evaluate the company, that they're being evaluated without bias. That's something that's really hard to do, and one that I put a lot of data and a lot of, ah, time into thinking about How is it that we ensure super fair and objective process and then, ultimately, that we're always hiring the very, very best? Um, that, you know, we are running the process, that we have a pipeline that z diverse but that were attracting and bringing in the very, very best towns because you've heard the cliche. It's a war for talent and you know it starts at the university programs and we wanna make sure that we are bringing in the best and the brightest minds because they're going to be the future and these are the individuals that will really shaped the organization in terms of my office hours. Um, you know, it's funny because my kids and my kids, when they would tell you that I worked a ton. But, you know, I'm I'm a little bit older my career, and when I started, I think I already confessed to you that we didn't have the Internet way, have fax machines, and back then everything that we did had to be done in the office. And so if I had to catch up, I had to stay late in the office or I had to go in on the weekends, which I frequently did. And it wasn't a big deal. And now I'm able to do all of that work on my terms. And I think this is something that you know are millennials have taught us that it's totally you're just Azaz, capable and just as impactful by collaborating with people you know on your own time. And as a result, it has completely given. I think it's redefined the workforce, and it's given all of us a lot more flexibility than we ever thought imaginable. So you know, I tend to work during the day. You know, like a normal work, our But then I catch up in the evening for like, if I've got the clients or, you know, offices, you know, outside of the United States and international regions, I'm always available, and that's all the great And then, of course, if I'm speaking to executives or two candidates who can't speak to me during the business hours that I'm able to catch up with them over on the weekends or after hours, but it all works out, so I really appreciate the flexibility and I feel like the substance in that time Millennials have given us, you know, have taught us the way, and I'm really grateful for that.

What are major challenges and pain points in a job like yours? What approaches are effective in overcoming them? Discussing examples will help students learn better.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
The major challenges for us is, of course, is making sure that is how do we know we've hired the best? And so, you know, everybody says that they're trying Thio, and certainly my team tells me that we are. But how do I really know that empirically And as a result, I've put together you many different processes in place. That really does measure that quality of higher. And you'd be surprised that sometimes, you know, we could be really biased and say, Well, individuals from these super elite schools are gonna yield the best or individuals who have worked at these very no marquee name companies. You know, they're going to be the very best. And what we're learning is that that's actually not true. Is that sometimes individuals who are coming from middle tier schools or from some of those unconventional industries or companies actually do better in our environment than those who may have come from. There's, you know, those big household names that we all know about right? And I think the reason is that thes individuals, you know, they are a lot more to prove on day come to us without these sort of preconceived notions on how something needs to be done. And having that open mind about how to approach a problem truly with like a beginner's mind is totally refreshingly than having somebody who comes to me and says, Well, this is how we did at Google. This is how we did it Amazon, which maybe, and maybe that was really effective. But that might not apply, you know, in a smaller environment on DSO that is something that putting together those processes, you know, that hiring criteria, that those data points, that that really do empirically show us that they were hiring somebody who is adaptable, somebody who can critically think somebody who knows how to collaborate. Somebody's got great communication, somebody who has a mindset for resolution of technical resolution, those individuals. Those are really the attributes that that really do define a great hire, and those individuals end up doing really well in our environment. And so trying to make sure that our interview processes reflect that is really important but going to employ experience, making sure that when individual comes on board, if we know that they need some development in one of those areas that we've got the training and the programs to proactively address it to get them. You get them up to speed in these some in some of these areas to make sure that they're gonna be super successful in our environment and that they're getting the support, you know, from day one.

What are the job titles of people who someone in your role routinely works with, within and outside of the organization? What approaches are effective in working with them?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
So I worked really at the executive level at so Fi. So so far stands for for social finance it za startup. It's about 2000 employees. They're very close here. Thio filing for their initial public offering. We are, in essence, dismantling basically the way traditional archaic banks are set up today. And so I worked with doing a lot of talent traction at the executive level. So I worked with very closely with our executive team. So our CEO in our CFO, CFO for workforce planning on day for acquisitions. And our CEO, of course, is very, very interested in how we're doing about hiring great people and, of course, attracting other executives who are gonna further, um, you know, the organization's charter. My team, of course, looks for, you know, for a gamut of people, anything from finance. Since, uh, no, we build a I tools that help individuals at all walks of life be able to get their money right and be able to get their investment strategies right and giving them access to tools Onda platforms that no traditional people don't normally get access to unless they're really, really far along and they have kind of a specialist like giving them guidance. And so again, we're kind of democratizing the way people think about banking. And we think about investing. So we look for finance. People look for people, you know within the banking marketplace. And then, of course, we look for amazing engineers who are really great at AI and a software engineering eso, though that's kind of gives you a sense of a kind of a different profiles that we look for and then our approach for working with them. I mean, I want to see if there is, like, a specific approach for executives. Um, this is my advice for anybody is if go to your executive with you If you're gonna go highlight that there's an issue. Also highlight the solution. Have a point of view. Um, you know, I just giving somebody advice on my team today on a topic around on. There's new immigration rules are coming out, and you know this effects are foreign workers. And I was telling them, What's your what is your point of view? How do we saw for this? How can we proactively get in front of this? And what's the analysis that we need to do so that we can make a recommendation. And, you know, hopefully one that's gonna be very favorable to our employees. And so you know what I would say I was some people. You don't just report the weather, you know, like tell me, like, what can we do to get in front of that? And so that's really my advice for anybody you're working with, a particularly for work at the executive level. You really want to stay in front of that, make sure that you're kind of seeing around the corner. You're anticipating what happens next, and you were able to be that adviser and ultimately that trusted advisor, because you're thinking 23 steps ahead.

How would you describe your management style? How has it evolved over the years? Can you tell about experiences or books that influenced your management style?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
um, my leadership style. It's funny. I think I've been pretty consistent. I'm a super down to earth person, and I'm very, very, very direct. Eso you know, like I will speak to you the way I will speak to a friend. I don't You'll always know what I'm thinking. And this really works for me because a I like to do things fast. I want to move forward. And I think that being really clear in your communication and telling people what you expect is the easiest way. Um, you know, some people like have a war consensus driven type of approach. I like to be able to say we're going to go there. And then, of course, we start moving in that direction. And if we think of a better way, then we can pivot. We can get more information, but I don't like it if we try to over analyze or for spending too much time, you know, processing and creating indecision. A t end of the day. I have I have a huge bias for action, and I would rather be slightly wrong thing be inactive, so I'd rather start moving and then get more information and then we pivot and you and then you continue to pivot until you get to where you wanna be. But you're always moving forward on gun. You're always receptive. Thio again Thio listening and having the council of others. And so I like that style and it's been very effective for me because we had to get things done. Time's of the essence in my profession, our employees, they want to see us do things fast, and they want to see us react to their needs very quickly. And so as long as you can approach it with some humility and say, Hey, I might not be 100% right But I think I could address 70% of the problem that will keep Iterating on the last 30%. People love that. I mean, they will take 70% and your genuine desire and heart. Then you say we'll get back to you in six weeks when I got it all figured out, because the truth is that you think you got it all figured out, you probably still only come up with about 70% and you'll probably still need to reiterate, you know, on that last 30%. And so that's my style again. I think that the real key there is to move quickly and to be clear about what you're looking to do. People like to know what you're thinking so that they could they could augment. And they can. Sure, you up, eh? So it just it ends up being, I think, a very effective style in terms of getting things done.

How do you manage conflicts within and across teams? How do you promote trust, openness and a healthy work culture? Sharing stories will greatly help.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
I think that it's about establishing what is the common goal, right? So if you're working with somebody else, it might not be like super drunk, but have to figure out what is a common goal, like who are we here to serve on? But what is best for all of that constituency? So you know it is the common goal. You know, for example, of the customer is a common goal. The client is the common goal, an internal process. And I think that once you establish like, hey, this is our goal and it's mutual then it's pretty easy about promoting trust and moving towards it, because we could all agree this is what we want to get there. We might disagree on the strategy on how to get there, but at least we know that we all want to end up with this end result. And then that's where you could start to really start to debate the pros and cons and each approach, um, but without having that shared, this is the end goal. It becomes very difficult and that's where I think that ambiguity and mistrust starts to happen because people don't know where you're coming from. And so I was honest. You're pretty clear about you know, what your intended, you know, ideal outcome is and you could find that common ground, Um, that I think that people could align pretty quickly to that, and it's been getting incredibly effective for me.

How can one get better recognition of work from one's boss and higher management? What mistakes should one avoid? Stories or examples will be quite helpful.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
very easy one for me on bits, one that I recommend everybody. So first of all, like you should be able to, um, set up meetings first. I don't do in an organization where people could get upset if you're having a conversation with, you know, uh, somebody higher up than you, right? That's like when you interview should be interviewing for that and making sure that it's truly when people say it's an open door policy or there's a responsibility to executives that they really mean it. And I would encourage anybody who's interviewing just say, Well, that's tell me more about that has that manifest in your environment. So in my organization, I think it's awesome when new college grads or individuals who started their careers I call him early career seekers asked me for time because they want to have a lot of a lot of the companies were asking me now, or they wanted to seek to understand on how they could be most successful in the environment. So have, like, make sure you're setting up those those those interviews and and those conversations with executives that you think are going to be influential. Um, I also highly encourage you to think about your organization and think about all the stakeholders who, um should should who may may be interested in the work that you're doing. So if you're in engineering, think about maybe individuals in product management that might be interested or in product marketing, who might be interested who ultimately have to use the product. Try to talk to you know, maybe who's the end user. Um, try Thio do maybe two postmortem on current products, and you know how they came to fruition. So really trying to spend time and brought in your network besides your immediate work group is really, really, I think, critical success because you want people to know a your intentions going back. Thio want people to trust you to know you know that what you're capable of, and you also want to see how you could help them. You want to start to build out. You know those relationships, then the other thing I say to you is trying to spend time with your immediate boss and ask your boss like, What is the number one thing that's keeping you up at night? Like what's the number one thing that you're thinking about for next year. If you could just different in our environment, what would it be? And really try to align yourself with those goals and those priorities that are really most critical to your management's? Um, you know, radar like so that's really kind of that they're thinking about. And, of course, try to provide a creative solution to that. Um, in my career, I was super effective at They'll spend time in understanding, were the most critical hiring had to be in an environment like, for example, I formally I was the e v p of talent at Salesforce. When I joined, they had 5000 people. When I left, they had 54,000 people and we had a massive growth. But obviously I couldn't go and feed every single mouth at once. Right? I had to prioritize like who? The most important hires we're gonna be. And that took analysis from me working with my boss and really identifying like these hires on the most critical ones worship I would spend my most time. Does it mean those are less important? It's just meant that these are the more critical, so making sure that I was aligning myself to the most important initiatives where I could make the biggest impact. You know, that correlates back to your Where is the company going on gun? Align yourself to that, I think is incredibly important. I think sometimes people come in and they align themselves to what interests them the most or where they want to build their resume. And that's nice. But I think that when you're really like early career seeker, um, you really don't have that political capital at that point, and you really need to start aligning yourself what's most important to the company and where you could make the biggest impact. Because once you have that credibility, then people start asking you now where should we go next? And that's when you could start to exert a little bit more of your personal opinions and in a little bit of your own preference

What indicators are used to track performance in a job like yours? Think of the indicators such as key performance indicators (KPIs), objectives & key results (OKRs), or so on.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
Yeah, our company uses okay, are, and so they are extremely diligent about them. I'm a big fan. I love any sort. I mean, there's lots of different, you know, tools out there. But my my my strong goal is to really embrace. That would be really clear And to really seek to understand, you know, where the OECD cars at the company level, at your management level. And then once again, as I mentioned to you earlier, how can you align yourself, Andi? Absolutely. Make sure that you're contributing to the most significant. Okay, ours.

What skills and qualities do you look for while hiring? What kind of questions do you typically ask from candidates?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
I did mention this. You know, I look for I look for people who are super adaptable because, you know, like I work in a fast changing organizations that are hiring really, really aggressively and that are growing really aggressively. That means that your job today is gonna be really different. Six months for male and that's a good thing. That's because you know the scenario. Change of growth. The environment is growing. So people that are really adaptable people who can work well with other who can collaborate particularly now all through zoom. So being a clear of verbal communicator, being a clear written communicator eyes important people who actually do what they say they're going to do, um, see how people who can pontificate and they think about it and they're visionaries, but they don't they don't create executing. And we need people who can actually commit, say they're gonna do it and then do it on DSO. Those are things you know, that I look for, of course, on by other people who are creative in their in their in their problem solving Andi that resolution based and so you know how did they come? You know How did they approach a problem? And when they're looking at it, do they have a creative solution you know, are pragmatic about how how are they approaching? You know, a particular issue? Um, these were just some of the areas. And then, quite as I typically ask candidates, is, I asked them to take me through something that that was small, that they made big on day. What did they learn in that process? I talked. I asked them to walk me through projects where they collaborate with others and describe what the weakest link was like and like there's always a weak link or there's always one person who's not pulling their weight. So I want to describe that individual. And then what do they do to mitigate that? Because that's that's the reality of certain situations. And so I always curious to see how people you know approaches type of problems. Um, and at the university level, I often look for people who are really ambitious who, you know, aren't afraid to tell me that they want to grow, that this is what they want to do on. Ben asked them, You know, for you know how do they plan to get there? Andi, I have a plan to earns or that that that that next level of responsibility and scope. But this is a good time in your life to really think about like words that you wanna be. And how do you plan to do that? I asked people if they have a mentor, because I think that everybody should have one. And it's important that, um that particularly early career seekers haven't interviewed that they could be very honest with that. They could be vulnerable. And they could say, you know, I didn't handle that really very well. You want to tell your boss that, right? You wanna be telling people at work, you know? Oh, my God, I totally messed up. But you should get the habit of reflecting that reflecting upon that and then having somebody you can confide in who is not going to judge you, who can You can share those experiences with who can coach you and make you better and could help you along the way. And so I often ask, you know, individuals who are particularly those air really ambitious If they have a mentor, if they're really ambitious, but they don't have a mentor. It often tells you they're not doing the work. Andi. It's important that they have that person they could do the work with.

Can you discuss career accomplishment(s) that you feel good about? Please discuss the problem context, your solution, and the impact you made.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
But I am so lucky. I've done some great great great great great things that I'm totally proud of. A Z I mentioned I start my career at Sybase, and then I went to ah, start up called Documentum, which we grew to about 2000 people they required by AMC. And then I ran the software division of Recruiting for M. C, which involved large attack and VM ware and, of course, Documentum. Then I went to a company called Yahoo, which was, you know, a beloved household brand. And this was this. This was some hard years, because if you guys recall, maybe don't uh, yeah, who had, you know, Yahoo had put a tumultuous years. Microsoft was making a bid to acquire them and they went through a lot of CEOs. But we really focused on the brand. And to this day, I'm sure many of you on this call probably still use Yahoo to get your news to get your weather, you sports or finances these properties air still ubiquitous in the marketplace for riel, strong death. And we really focused on those areas and we're able to attract We were having 4000 people. You know a year, which doesn't seem like a lot by the time there was a ton, particularly in a time where, you know, there was a lot of movement going on the market on DSO, really focusing on on the brand and really focusing on, like the true essence of what this was me for individuals. And I think I mentioned you already. When I joined Salesforce, I joined them. They were about 5500 employees and I give them to 54,000 employees. We expanded to 40 different countries. We did, I think, over 40 different acquisitions, and it's just massive on Got a team of 750 people. And when I when I left, Salesforce and I decided I wanted to go back and do it again in a company called Social Finance, Right to go back to so fi and I'm excited about the leadership in the executive team, But I'm also excited about disrupting an entire marketplace. What so far is doing into banking and to you know, that that whole environment you know, it's no different than you know what air being needed to hotels and what uber did. Two taxis and so being part of something that is completely you're redefining the market is tremendous. But it's one thing that every single person has in common. You and I may not agree, like taxi services, but we all agree that we want to get our money right. And so, being able to provide a tool and a platform that every single person, regardless of their walking life, you know, is gonna be able to better for him. It makes you feel really good about the work that you're doing.

What responsibilities and decisions did you handle? What were the top three priorities and pain points? What strategies were effective in dealing with challenges?

Based on experience at: Executive Vice President, Head of Global Talent & Growth,
Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
I mean, Salesforce was definitely, like a bigger scale. I oversaw everything around against the talent attraction. And then when people got to the company in terms of their own career development and making sure again that they were having a good experience of the company, that we had the right trainings and we're giving them, you're growing them and making sure that they were able to stay with the company for a long as possible. Um, my, my prayer is really the same it's about It's always about hiring the very best. Making sure is a very fair process that we are creating a pipeline that is incredibly inclusive, Andi, that ultimately, um, you know, creating an environment where people could thrive and my strategies in dealing with these challenges is really to stay in front of it, to use data data data like I did not make any decision without understanding the historical trends. I really ran the organization like a sales environment and so understanding your pipeline, understand your conversions, understanding your decline rates understanding you know how long it took to fill a position, understanding that individuals ramp understanding where they would probably training the reports on the way. Those were all really important to creating that awesome, you know, employees life cycle. And as something that we did, that was always the basic everything behind them. The inter behind that all those decisions was always based on understanding the data.

What college programs did you attend and what were their best parts? How did each of your college programs prepare you for your career?

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
my God, I was terrible at this. You know, I put myself through school. I'm the daughter of immigrants. Uh, my family's from Cuba, and, you know, my parents were not formally educated in this country, and so I didn't have that role model. You know, my parents told me to go to school. It was really important and get great. I think they just didn't want me to get in trouble, but they weren't necessarily telling me. Oh, you got to go to college, and then you gotta get an internship. I'm with my kids now, Like I'm totally preparing them, right? I'm like, every summer they've got something to do is preparing for the next step. But I didn't have that insight. Um, so I was super lucky. And now I had a great group. They they were all going to college. And so I thought, Well, maybe I should apply. And then, of course I did. I got into some pretty good ones, and then, you know, I just I was working throughout college. My entire I worked the whole time. And like I told you, I kind of fell into this. Um, so I didn't have like the experience that I think most mostly I hope, that most college students have today. I think that again, if my my biggest piece of advice for you would be, um, is to is to start networking is to start having comments just like this one is. Start to reaching out to executives in the marketplace and try to get a sense of what you want to do. It's okay to change your mind, but you have an open mind about like what you think you want to do is try to have those conversations and do what you want to do, not what your parents want you to dio. That's really important because it's your life. At the end of the day, you're you got it for you to be great. At some things, you have to really love it. You can't love it on behalf of your grandmother for, you know, for 50 years, so you have to love it because you're because you love it. You don't get the whole cliche that if you love what you do, you'll never work in the day of your life. I mean, I truly love what I do like I feel really lucky on Dwell some days I'm not gonna I'm gonna get there are a little tough For the most part I can't believe they pay me to do this Um, it really is exciting. And so I I would I would hope that all of you guys take the time to really try to think about what you want to dio and then to fall into something that you really love.

What three life lessons have you learned over your career? If any, please also discuss your experiences facing adversity, or trying something unusual.

Summarized By: Jeff Musk on Mon Oct 12 2020
my life lessons. Well, I'll give you my my my values. And these are values that I hold true both as I evaluate opportunities. So when I left Salesforce, I looked as I evaluated, you know, other rules, and, um, it's kind of a little bit of who I am. It's a lot of who I am. So I would like to eleventy and everything. I dio Andi. I'm not used any curse words in this conversation, but, you know, I tend to I tryingto make people laugh, right to say things. They're going to shock them a little bit. And, you know, at the end of the day, we have to have fun. It kind of goes back to loving what you do and loving who you're doing it with. And if it's always so serious, it's so intense. I mean, I don't have that kind of disposition. So I really like to inject fun and whatever I do and to bring that energy into any conversation. So that's a that's a value for me. I am fiercely, fiercely independent. I'm a super independent person. My poor husband will tell you how independent I am. I like to work independent environments where I have a lot of autonomy on DSO. I look for environments where I know that I could make decisions. I could make strategic decisions, um, that I could I have the space to fail. But I also had the space to really chart my ground. And so to me, that's really important. And I look for that when I look at evaluating, you know, particular opportunities. Um, it's something, something that that that's important to me. And then my my third one, I see. I think I said I levity. Independence. Um oh my God, I'm forgetting my my my my third value. That's like super. Those two are really are really critical. I think that, you know, the third one is authentic environments. I have to really believe in the people and the work that I'm doing. I loved I loved working a sales force because I really believe in the mission. The company, I think, was a very genuine place to work. But I even love working it. So far. I even Mawr, because it's a consumer and what I'm doing directly affects people you know, enterprise software. At the end of the day, you know you're making a lot of money, but the ethos of a software company that's in that's doing consumer. It's different. Like I know that when we provide a platform that gives accessibility thio crazy amazing investment tools using, you know, r a ai technology that anybody can use, you know, So they all walks of life not just for the super privilege, but like anybody. You have $20 and you could use our tools and they're free to you. And it gives you advice on how you should be investing that that's fantastic. I mean, this is something that has never done before, and we all know that nobody is going to get rich just by saving their money. Like, you know, we have to invest, and we have to take some risks. And so, being able to provide those tools to people, uh, that give them that kind of clarity and that assurance Andi accessibility, of course, is it's awesome. And so that, to me, is it's very authentic, and I really believe in the purpose of the company. And I'm the same way. Like I'm a super authentic person, um, with my relationships with people and so I appreciate that s so that's important to me both personally, professionally